completing the small blind?

-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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I often find myself, playing at low stakes, coming by these sorts of situations. Lets see i'll be sitting in the small blind holding a hand like 7s 3s and blinds are 25/50 and a non suspicious limper enters the pot, lets say from middle position. I find myself sitting with this silly hand and I usually muck, although from every source I read it explains to me that you're getting such great odds that folding with any hand here would be improper. But, is it not that with just a great of chance that I flop great and take the pot down that I may get myself in trouble fiddling with these low value cards?

Lets say there are two limpers now, again non suspicious, and it comes around to me to complete 25 to enter this 175 chip pot. I enter with my
js 2d, due to odds here being to great to pass on, and the flop comes
jd 8s 5s, where am I at now? At possible risk in getting in trouble? If a small bet comes around to me am I supposed to muck this because my kicker is horrible and i'll only be looking for a 2 or a J to make this hand?
Should I bet if the turn is safe and it was checked around on the flop?

These are some of the questions that come across my mind while playing in these sort of positions, usually if there is a small bet I say adios to the
j 2 unless having some sort of evidence against the villian.

Not to further elongate this thread, but what about if there is a min raise to 100 chips and there are two callers and the sum of the pot now balances to 375 chips and I only need 75 to call, but here I am with my weak hand. It is a very minor aspect of the game, but I would still like to read how you guys handle these types of situations.
 
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swingro

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First of all limping like that is like playing loto. If u hit your high card u are in big trouble cose u do not know what others have. If u bet after the flop u do not know how much u should bet with 2 limmper + BB seing the flop. They can have anything from nothing to 3 of kind , draws, an Ace or King etc. If 2 of them are calling stations and have an ace or king a pair or a draw u have to bet a lot to scare them. But if someone has 2 pairs or even a J with a bigger kicker u are busted and u will pay like hell for your mistake of limping.
Another mistake is to let them see the turn. If u make a move u have to make it after the flop.

Of course u can check all the way and let the luck decide for u. But with 4 ppl at the table seeing the flop even if u hit your big card on the flop .. the chances of winning the hand are small.
I do not have the perfect advice for low stakes. I took bad beats with aces , kings, queeens from hands like 25s, 72s , pocket pairs, raising like hell before the flop.
They do not care if they loose their buy in.
 
KyleJRM

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If it's good enough to play, it's good enough to raise. Otherwise, yes, fold.
 
Divebitch

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I find myself sitting with this silly hand and I usually muck, although from every source I read it explains to me that you're getting such great odds that folding with any hand here would be improper.

Kinda funny, I used to always call the SB in an unraised pot for the same reason. But the few sources I've read assert that you shouldn't call the SB w/junk simply because 1) you're not likely to get the best hand w/junk and more importantly 2) you're in the worst position post-flop. To a lesser extent, if it's folded to you (or even if it's not), the BB can raise.

If I don't sense the BB will try to outright steal, I will sometimes call with marginal junk (i.e. 86 suited, 9-10os). I will not call 73os, 94os and the like. What you're hoping for is trips, a flush or 2 pair on a dry flop to raise. A flush draw is probably a check-fold, depending on the bet.
 
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This can be a big leak for me sometimes which now I am playing turbos is more apparent, I play too many sb hands. I think in the early levels if there or 4 or 5 limpers it can be good to complete your small blind but as Dive said alot of the time it can lead to trouble espically if you hit your high pair and some one calls you all the way to the river and spikes a card.It would be intresting if someone with the software could see how much they lose or win on average playing the small blind.
 
trucker103

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one of my biggest leaks in my game cant stop seein i got half already in and does get u in trouble like a fish out of water. have tried to stop earlier in the tourney when blinds are low has gotten me further .
 
-Phil Ivey27

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Thanks to everyone for their input.

Although, I would like to bring back one of my questions from above, which I will now coincide with an example of a hand using a screenshot.

What would you guys do in this situation? the blinds are 15/30 and all other information is available in the picture below.
 

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Divebitch

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I'm certainly no expert, but I'd bet out here, maybe a standard raise, for a couple reasons.

1) It's believable that the typically SB trash hit it even harder than you did. SB, especially one that didn't raise can have almost anything except a preflop monster.
2) For information. You can still get away from the hand if you smell bad news.
3) It's 'fairly' likely that you're ahead. Let's say you called A2 and an ace hits. The chances are you're behind cuz people love to call with aces. A 9 with a better kicker than yours is simply a little less likely.
4) If you check, it's an invitation for bluffs, not to mention them catching overcards.

I might be totally wrong on the above. Might be a better idea to check, and see if it gets checked around, and hope for your hand to further improve, or at least not get worse. BTW, if there was a 3-flush, or straight possibility, check-fold.
 
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Thanks to everyone for their input.

Although, I would like to bring back one of my questions from above, which I will now coincide with an example of a hand using a screenshot.

What would you guys do in this situation? the blinds are 15/30 and all other information is available in the picture below.

Ok these kind of hands get me in trouble sometimes when I have completed the small blind, sometimes I am pretty sure my top pair is good sometimes so I bet big and take the pot there and then right? Wrong, what usally happens is I will throw chips into the pot then somebody will call with a flush daw or AK AQ etc and alot of players at the micros will call down with high card A or even spend most of their stack chasing that flush/straight, This is when I either lose a lot a lot of chips or gain alot but in genral probally lose most of the time.

Many people/books/coaches have said this-

With big hands play big pots with small hands keep the pot small.

With that in mind think about what you will do if another club or an over card hits you possibly have the best hand right now but you cannot be sure so try to think how the hand will play out. If you bet 1/2 or 2/3 the pot and get a caller what are you going to do next if an overcard or scare card hits how much are you going to bet?
 
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I'm certainly no expert, but I'd bet out here, maybe a standard raise, for a couple reasons.

1) It's believable that the typically SB trash hit it even harder than you did. SB, especially one that didn't raise can have almost anything except a preflop monster.
2) For information. You can still get away from the hand if you smell bad news.
3) It's 'fairly' likely that you're ahead. Let's say you called A2 and an ace hits. The chances are you're behind cuz people love to call with aces. A 9 with a better kicker than yours is simply a little less likely.
4) If you check, it's an invitation for bluffs, not to mention them catching overcards.

I might be totally wrong on the above. Might be a better idea to check, and see if it gets checked around, and hope for your hand to further improve, or at least not get worse. BTW, if there was a 3-flush, or straight possibility, check-fold.

I agree with this, if you check your leaving yourself open to someone else raising and probally overraising at that so a bet seems in order just dont fall in love with top pair crappy kicker if your facing major resistance its easy to let this one go I think.
 
dwolfg

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There are times when it is absolutely appropriate to complete in the sb. If there are two limpers in the pot, even without antes your pot odds are 7 to 1. Using the break even point formula BEP=1/(pot odds +1), we come up with 12.5%, meaning we only need to win 12.6 percent of the time to justify a call. Now implied stack odds based on your player reads come into play. These hands should, imo, be treated like small pocket pairs or suited connectors, try to hit a big flop(minimum two pair or pair plus primary draw) or dump it post flop. Of course your player reads come into play on whether you can take the pot away if you don't hit a big flop.
 
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Unless there is a tournament specific reason I am always folding J2 type hands. The reason being that even a JJ5 flop can leave you knackered to a 55 or Jx hand. To make the complete profitable you need a monster and some action, so 55 hitting a A58 can get you plenty of chips (though it can go wrong!) or your 45 against Ax to a A23 board will get action and chips from Ax, or your As4s will do well to a spade flop.

Most times we will miss our flop. I am not getting too excited by a 678suited flop when holding 78 or 36Q holding J6 because we are putting ourselves in the position that we want the other guy to be in - ie having a decent hand that might be best but running into a monster.

The good thing about completing is that when you flop your monster you can check fold or fake a weak hand on the turn. For example, you have 45 to a A23 flop, everyone checks and the turn is a J; you bet the turn and the dude who is slow playing with A2 will put you on a J and pay you off nicely.
 
Poker Orifice

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You want to avoid putting yourself in spots where you need to make tough decisions... & instead put the other guy(s) to the decision. In other words....'muck it'preflop & move on.
Power Of Position!!!!
 
MrHopeful

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I would limp from sb with any 2 cards which are at max 1 gap connected early on when stacks are deep and getting 5/1 plus pot odds with chance to score a big hit if i get lucky with the intention of folding if i whiff the flop

I would never limp in though with a broadway card and low kicker as that opens up too many nightmare scenarios

Once the I have less than 40BB then I fold them every time unless I think I can charge 'limpers tax' and raise (at least 2x pot size) and take blinds down
 
LombardiStix

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I'd call early on in the tournament as you describe. Sometimes, (and this may not be popular) I'll put out a bit of a raise. Eliminate some opponents, and get some information on the people who stay in's hand. If they call you can put them on a range. This will help when you get to the flop and you flop your 9 high flop. No paint??? Bet again. You've effectively disguised your hand while at the same time got information on theirs.

Stix
 
BeaverTrump

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Completely not necessarily that at them is on hands J, therefore safely do the rate on flop and further already look on a situation. If someone will make call - simply play check on a sloe or continue to do the rate if on a sloe there was a harmless card. Be more safely and more aggressively, especially with top pair on flop. Especially limpiers could come with very wide range and you at least in 50 % will be ahead on flop.
 
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i dont like alot of limpers in the pot, and if i think they might be thinking to limp riase with a monster ill just flat call and see if i can suckout, but if i think they just want to seea flop ill raise and try to take it down thier, or set myselfup with the image that i have a big hand and try to take it down if a couple face cards come on the flop
 
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limping with any 2 cards can be dangerous, but I have worked on limping and just calling preflop in order to improve my post flop play. It has actually helped me quite a bit as I try different moves from different positions, key is trying to know where you are in a hand and not over committing on a pair or draw.
 
Poker Orifice

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Thanks to everyone for their input.

Although, I would like to bring back one of my questions from above, which I will now coincide with an example of a hand using a screenshot.

What would you guys do in this situation? the blinds are 15/30 and all other information is available in the picture below.

Maybe check-raise.... but. it depend! Maybe check/Call (vs. 1 player) & re-evaluate turn
Probably not leading out into a multi-way pot.... ie. I bet out... get called.. now what on the turn? Overcard comes.. I check/Call? bet/fold??
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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Hahaha ^^ that is why I see it as one of the simplest yet most difficult situations you find yourself in poker.
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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I'd like to resurrect this thread rather than starting a new one because I have a question that applies to this situation. Earlier I was 9 tabling $2 sng's for SNG Madness and a position I found myself in many times where I wasn't exactly sure what to do..

I would have let's say 2,500 chips with 6 players left and blinds at 100/200 and I am sitting in the SB with K7 against the BB stack that is in the same position, do I call the blind here? Do I raise? Is it all dependent on the history of the villain in the BB?

Lets say I get an Ace rather than a K what do I do then? How about when the big blind has 800 to 1k left I have 2,500 chips and I pick up Ax do I push all-in on them?

I usually just called the blind if I had any K or A but I didn't find it to be particularly effective. Also, keep in mind I am multi-tabling here so folding is probably the easiest option. Although, at the same time statistics say that I am a favorite against the BB with these types of hands.
 
Shufflin

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In that specific situation my decision is to shove or fold, so I would fold the K7. You might be ahead in many cases but anything he calls with likely has you beat.

This is not one of my strong points though, so I'm interested to hear what others say about this case...
 
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