Chip leader/table captain questions.

vinylspiros · Jun 12, 2013

I wanted to get a little discussion going about the term chip leader and or table captain.

Somewhere along the line, i picked up this concept that when your playing in a tournament and your deep beyond the bubble and trying to go to the final table and you have alot of chips (way above the tourney average ), that it is your duty to bully people around and steal blinds.

Ok ,i get it and it makes alot of sense. The question is: How much bullying around are we talking about and where is the point that we crossed the line?

Are we supposed to be calling off 25BB with QJ from the bb just because button open shoved?

Are we raising and calling shoves with any ace garbage hand?

Like when we say,that the deeper you are (blindwise) the more you can afford to call? How loose are we talking about here? caling shoves with pocket 3's for 20 BB?

I think i have somewhere along the line lost this balance and i would like someone to help me understand whats the best play when you have alot of chips?

Are we getting involved everywhere and squeezing alot or are we tightening up and playing premiums?

I think i here alot of conflicting opinion on this issue and i would like some feedback as to which is the best way to play .

vinylspiros · Jun 12, 2013

I have another nice little hypothetical question.

Your sitting at a table and you know that there are alot of aggressive players at the table.(im talking about online)

And your beyond the bubble and your sitting on approximately 30BB. Your UTG with pocket 8's.You know someones going to be shoving if you raise. say the two potential shovers have 17BB and 20BB respectively. Do you fold these 8's or are you raise/folding to a shove? or raise calling a shove?

It doesnt matter if the person that shoves will be shoving light. My question is what do we do with medium pocket pairs when we're under the gun and we know the action that follows will be commiting for us? (and we're 30 BB deep)

JusSumguy · Jun 12, 2013

Push till they push back. Give it a breath, and get back at it.

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swissarmy · Jun 13, 2013

re-table captain I think the most important part of whatever you are doing is have a plan and be aware of what you would do if any of the stacks behind you would raise or all in you...if I have the chips I am using them to put on pressure not for making loose calls...it also should be pretty easy to tell who is folding for cash or the next money bubble/final table...the worst mistake I see captains make is making loose calls and getting carried away with bad hands/bluffs after the flop....for example last night I had a guy that had 3 times the chips(150k-50k...other stacks mostly 20k-30k) second place had with about 24 people left and he just had to get into every pot and he went out 20th playing every hand and calling all ins with anything,smart play for him would have just been coasting to the final table and picking up blinds in unopened pots or waiting till final table bubble to abuse some shorts stacks...be aggressive but be smart about it.

Michael Paler · Jun 13, 2013

What is "too aggressive"?

I know exactly what you mean. I once got saved in a live MTT when this happened:

Short Stack (9 Big Blinds) shoves all in, I look down at AK (and 22 Big Blinds). I then decide with others yet to act, to isolate by shoving.

Well, the Big Stack at the table, in the small blind (w a 42 Big Blind stack, "Table Captain") decides to call! I'm dead right? WRONG!

SS = 6h,6d
ME = Ad,Kd
BS = 4s,4H (in this case, BS doesn't necessarily mean "Big Stack")

Board: 5,5,K,6,J

So, I lost the 9 Big blinds to the short stack, but won 13 Big Blinds from the "Big Stack" who should have folded. But no, he had to "be the bully", only he did it with a measly pair of 4's! So, now I have 26 BB's, he's now down to 20.
(all rough approximations, but you get the point)

Nothing wrong with being the bully with a big stack, you just gotta use your head! Faced with one all in and a 3-bet all in, he should have known his 4's were no good! I'm sure he thought "Well, here is my chance to knock out two players, plus I have them both covered, so I can risk it, despite horrible pot odds and a very weak hand".

He justified it by saying I was lucky to hit my K, but look at that board....Had the J hit instead of the K, thus double pairing the board, I still would have got him! So, even though he "knew" I had AK, he still donked it hoping the 4's held and an A or K didn't flop. FOR HALF HIS STACK!!! What if I had AA? Then you are pinning your hopes on a set! Balance the odds of hitting a set with the pot odds, or simply "50% of your checks"...BAD CALL!

How often does the final table chip leader win it? Not often by over-playing hands like this. Be aggressive, by all means, but pick the right spots to do it in. Don't be afraid to fold suddenly because you are the chip leader.

P.S. After THE WHOLE TABLE WITNESSED him call off 50% of his stack with a pair of 4's, for some reason raises he then made were no longer respected by the table. He ended up getting felted with, of all things, AK vs A-10. The lady thought he was weak, called with a weaker hand, and rivered a 10 after a dry flop and turn, taking him from Hero to Zero in only a few hands. He was the money bubble!

vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

Michael Paler said:
I know exactly what you mean. I once got saved in a live MTT when this happened:

Short Stack (9 Big Blinds) shoves all in, I look down at AK (and 22 Big Blinds). I then decide with others yet to act, to isolate by shoving.

Well, the Big Stack at the table, in the small blind (w a 42 Big Blind stack, "Table Captain") decides to call! I'm dead right? WRONG!

SS = 6h,6d
ME = Ad,Kd
BS = 4s,4H (in this case, BS doesn't necessarily mean "Big Stack")

Board: 5,5,K,6,J

So, I lost the 9 Big blinds to the short stack, but won 13 Big Blinds from the "Big Stack" who should have folded. But no, he had to "be the bully", only he did it with a measly pair of 4's! So, now I have 26 BB's, he's now down to 20.
(all rough approximations, but you get the point)

Nothing wrong with being the bully with a big stack, you just gotta use your head! Faced with one all in and a 3-bet all in, he should have known his 4's were no good! I'm sure he thought "Well, here is my chance to knock out two players, plus I have them both covered, so I can risk it, despite horrible pot odds and a very weak hand".

He justified it by saying I was lucky to hit my K, but look at that board....Had the J hit instead of the K, thus double pairing the board, I still would have got him! So, even though he "knew" I had AK, he still donked it hoping the 4's held and an A or K didn't flop. FOR HALF HIS STACK!!! What if I had AA? Then you are pinning your hopes on a set! Balance the odds of hitting a set with the pot odds, or simply "50% of your checks"...BAD CALL!

How often does the final table chip leader win it? Not often by over-playing hands like this. Be aggressive, by all means, but pick the right spots to do it in. Don't be afraid to fold suddenly because you are the chip leader.

P.S. After THE WHOLE TABLE WITNESSED him call off 50% of his stack with a pair of 4's, for some reason raises he then made were no longer respected by the table. He ended up getting felted with, of all things, AK vs A-10. The lady thought he was weak, called with a weaker hand, and rivered a 10 after a dry flop and turn, taking him from Hero to Zero in only a few hands. He was the money bubble!

This is Exactly what im talking about. I have done this many times in the past and im starting to question how loose table captains should be. Just because you managed to gather alot of chips, and are sitting on a healthy(ish) stack, doesnt mean you should be going overboard and calling everyone down.

Isnt it good to just play tight and play premiums the same way you would when your playing carefully/nitty and not risk losing your stack than to be hyper aggro and become the bubble boy yourself?

Cause im sure everyone here knows how bad it feels when your suddenly chip leader or top 5 chip stack and suddenly you just go bust cause the too many chips got to your head and messed up your game. It takes alot of self discipline to play good when your running good. And not make stupid moves that lead to losing everything, like in the example you made with the guys calling the two all-ins with pocket 4's.

this is exactly the kind of hand im talking about.

I might go as far as to say that i dont agree with the idea that table captains should be playing more aggressive than they would if they werent chip leaders. Is it okay to say that we should follow our plan and play the way we play regardless of what are stack size is?

Arjonius · Jun 13, 2013

The basic element of bullying is opening hands because the opponents are reluctant to get into hands with you. How often you can do this effectively is table- and situation-dependent, so you can't (or at least shouldn't) arbitrarily assume X% of hands.

Poker Orifice · Jun 13, 2013

It is ALL situational. You can't just put it in a box.

Propane Goat · Jun 13, 2013

If you want a good demonstration of how someone plays well with a large stack check out the video of the final table at the wsop 2013 $1.5k NLHE event on June 8. Jonathan Taylor (the eventual winner) had a massive chip advantage for the later part of the final table but he never made any crazy moves, if he raised and was re-raised depending on the situation he knew when he was beat and just laid it down.

I've been in situations too where I've been running hot and had a huge chip advantage, only to start thinking that I was invincible and busting out within the next five minutes because of bad calls and raises.

http://www.wsop.com/2013/live-video/

hobonc · Jun 13, 2013

I hate it when it's late in a tourney and some over zealous chip spewer with a big stack recklessly starts chipping up the small stacks who are a blind or two away from being on life support.

I agree with all the above who say to use bullying sparingly and when the situation allows you to do so with as little risk as possible. If you bully every hand then even the dimmest bulb at the table can figure out that is what you're doing. Limited use will keep them guessing if you are big stacking or you have waken up with a monster hand.

Randall McMurphy · Jun 13, 2013

"Are we supposed to be calling off 25BB with QJ from the bb just because button open shoved?

Are we raising and calling shoves with any ace garbage hand?"

No and no.

"And your beyond the bubble and your sitting on approximately 30BB. Your UTG with pocket 8's.You know someones going to be shoving if you raise. say the two potential shovers have 17BB and 20BB respectively. Do you fold these 8's or are you raise/folding to a shove? or raise calling a shove?"
If you know 100% only one person shoves (maniac?), I say call, you can't raise a shove. Two people, never.

vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

Arjonius said:
The basic element of bullying is opening hands because the opponents are reluctant to get into hands with you. How often you can do this effectively is table- and situation-dependent, so you can't (or at least shouldn't) arbitrarily assume X% of hands.

I hear you anjonius.thnks.

Poker Orifice said:
It is ALL situational. You can't just put it in a box.

your right,but doesnt the scale lean towards any side?

hobonc said:
I hate it when it's late in a tourney and some over zealous chip spewer with a big stack recklessly starts chipping up the small stacks who are a blind or two away from being on life support.

I agree with all the above who say to use bullying sparingly and when the situation allows you to do so with as little risk as possible. If you bully every hand then even the dimmest bulb at the table can figure out that is what you're doing. Limited use will keep them guessing if you are big stacking or you have waken up with a monster hand.

thnks for the input hobonc.

vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

Randall McMurphy said:
"Are we supposed to be calling off 25BB with QJ from the bb just because button open shoved?

Are we raising and calling shoves with any ace garbage hand?"

No and no.

"And your beyond the bubble and your sitting on approximately 30BB. Your UTG with pocket 8's.You know someones going to be shoving if you raise. say the two potential shovers have 17BB and 20BB respectively. Do you fold these 8's or are you raise/folding to a shove? or raise calling a shove?"
If you know 100% only one person shoves (maniac?), I say call, you can't raise a shove. Two people, never.

So your telling me that during a tourney,uve folded 8's UTG?

I dont think ive ever folded 8's UTG in my entire life. and maybe i should start.

JusSumguy · Jun 13, 2013

hobonc said:
I hate it when it's late in a tourney and some over zealous chip spewer with a big stack recklessly starts chipping up the small stacks who are a blind or two away from being on life support..

Stop it... I'm gettin wood

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vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

JusSumguy said:
Stop it... I'm gettin wood

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sayyyy whattttttttttt???????????........

TeUnit · Jun 13, 2013

i would also take resteal size stacks into consideration ie if they have 15-20bbs

JusSumguy · Jun 13, 2013

Big stack power has to be exploited. Doesn't mean you have to call a re raise. But it does mean that when the table limps to you, you gotta put out the steal.

These situations are only available to you, and to waste those spots will alert the good players at the table to start going after your stack.

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vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

JusSumguy said:
Big stack power has to be exploited. Doesn't mean you have to call a re raise. But it does mean that when the table limps to you, you gotta put out the steal.

These situations are only available to you, and to waste those spots will alert the good players at the table to start going after your stack.

-

I hear you umsum and agree with you. Let me play the role of the devils advocate for debate's sake.

Doesnt the statement that you made above mean playing looser than normal ,therefor making wrong(EV-)moves?

Cause if you squeezeplay due to a few limpers and someone shoves on you and you fold,your just giving people tips on how tight you are or not?

why should we squeeze play just cause the pot was limped? cause we have a big stack but a medium hand? Is that wise?

Randall McMurphy · Jun 13, 2013

vinylspiros said:
So your telling me that during a tourney,uve folded 8's UTG?

I dont think ive ever folded 8's UTG in my entire life. and maybe i should start.

No. I said if you raise 88 UTG, and somehow you know 100% villian shoves, call. It is an awkward spot though. If I make that raise and 12/9/2.5 rock shoves ep/mp, I may fold.

vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

Randall McMurphy said:
No. I said if you raise 88 UTG, and somehow you know 100% villian shoves, call. It is an awkward spot though. If I make that raise and 12/9/2.5 rock shoves ep/mp, I may fold.

hehhehehhe. yea. i hear you. If the nit table shoves your raise when u have 8's UTG,its a SIGHHHHHH fold.

JusSumguy · Jun 13, 2013

vinylspiros said:
I hear you umsum and agree with you. Let me play the role of the devils advocate for debate's sake.

Doesnt the statement that you made above mean playing looser than normal ,therefor making wrong(EV-)moves?

Cause if you squeezeplay due to a few limpers and someone shoves on you and you fold,your just giving people tips on how tight you are or not?

why should we squeeze play just cause the pot was limped? cause we have a big stack but a medium hand? Is that wise?

You loosen up. They can't. The fear factor covers that. Nobody wants to go up against the guy that can put them on the spot at any time. It's powerful, and needs to be exploited.

They know you're full of it. You know you're full of it. So if you have to fold to a re raise... no biggie.

The problem comes up when you don't recognize those spots and fold. Hey, it's only 10% of my stack.--> CALL. That's how you loose your stack. 10% at a time.

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vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

I got another question for you guys?

I was playing the big 55 last night on stars with a friend of mine. We were using his money and my wisdom(ok you can stop laughing now).

So im running pretty good and we are like 400 people from the money or something. Blinds are 750-1500.

Table is rather aggressive. Nothing crazy but not too many people allowing others to steal late. etc. alot of 3 betting going on.

So heres the story. Im dealt 78 suited and im on the button.Action is folded down to me .i raise to 3038 and guy in BB reraises me to 6699.

Were sitting on 52K chips . villain has around 30K. What do we do?

Is he commited? will I be commited if I flat? Do we flat with hands like this IN POSITION when blinds and antes are already high and it is kind of impossible to let go of any piece of the board that i might catch? Or do i 4bet shove? Or do i not bother raising with any hands im not willing to shove cause im not too deep?

Cause the way things are nowadays, raising the button is like saying :HI, i dont have anything. Would you mind reraising me and putting me in a tough spot.?

vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

JusSumguy said:
You loosen up. They can't. The fear factor covers that. Nobody wants to go up against the guy that can put them on the spot at any time. It's powerful, and needs to be exploited.

They know you're full of it. You know you're full of it. So if you have to fold to a re raise... no biggie.

The problem comes up when you don't recognize those spots and fold. Hey, it's only 10% of my stack.--> CALL. That's how you loose your stack. 10% at a time.

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I hear you jumsum. yea, i see what your saying. Yep thats more or less how i rool. just wanted to hear some others thought on it and im glad we are more or less on the same page here. thnks for the reply.

hobonc · Jun 13, 2013

vinylspiros said:
I got another question for you guys?

I was playing the big 55 last night on stars with a friend of mine. We were using his money and my wisdom(ok you can stop laughing now).

So im running pretty good and we are like 400 people from the money or something. Blinds are 750-1500.

Table is rather aggressive. Nothing crazy but not too many people allowing others to steal late. etc. alot of 3 betting going on.

So heres the story. Im dealt 78 suited and im on the button.Action is folded down to me .i raise to 3038 and guy in BB reraises me to 6699.

Were sitting on 52K chips . villain has around 30K. What do we do?

Is he commited? will I be commited if I flat? Do we flat with hands like this IN POSITION when blinds and antes are already high and it is kind of impossible to let go of any piece of the board that i might catch? Or do i 4bet shove? Or do i not bother raising with any hands im not willing to shove cause im not too deep?

Cause the way things are nowadays, raising the button is like saying :HI, i dont have anything. Would you mind reraising me and putting me in a tough spot.?

You made the decision to try and steal the blinds and it didn't work out. I say fold here. Not saying the way you played it was a bad move, it just didn't work out. It is going to cost too much for you to see where you actually stand in the hand. You have to let it go.

I might limp or min raise with 78s vs the blinds. It has the potential to be very profitable. Maybe villain 3 bets, you call and the flop comes 77x or xxxs to our suit, 456 and the the villain has AA and the small blind has 23. Now if you have Kxo limping here (or anytime) may not be such a good idea.

vinylspiros · Jun 13, 2013

hobonc said:
You made the decision to try and steal the blinds and it didn't work out. I say fold here. Not saying the way you played it was a bad move, it just didn't work out. It is going to cost too much for you to see where you actually stand in the hand. You have to let it go.

I might limp or min raise with 78s vs the blinds. It has the potential to be very profitable. Maybe villain 3 bets, you call and the flop comes 77x or xxxs to our suit, 456 and the the villain has AA and the small blind has 23. Now if you have Kxo limping here (or anytime) may not be such a good idea.

^^^ THIS. This is why i folded. because although i was getting like 4 to 1 on a call .The pot at this point was like 3088(my raise)+6699(villains 3bet)+750(small blind)+say around 2000 antes =average around 12k. so i have to call another 3.7K to win 12K. and with my call the pot is at around 15K.

SO..........if the pot is at around 15k preflop. and he has 23K left behind i wont be able to call any continuation bet without going to showdown(unless im a complete moron). So i guess the fold is the right decision here?

The wrong decision is that i raised with it in the first place? Right people? Because the outcome was EV-. So if you raise with the intention of folding to a reraise then why raise in the first place? Esp when you are pretty much sure that someone left to act is highly probable to 3bet.

and i know some of you will say its situation dependant and i agree. So when we know that someone behind us will probably 3bet us, we just give up COMPLETELY on the blind stealing and only raise with the intent to 4 bet shove if im not mistaken right?

(im talking about late stage tourney when everyones stacks are rather shallow and the blinds and antes make the play totally different cause they are so huge)

Chip leader/table captain questions.

vinylspiros

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vinylspiros

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JusSumguy

Chipmonger

swissarmy

Enthusiast

Michael Paler

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vinylspiros

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Arjonius

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Poker Orifice

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Propane Goat

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hobonc

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Randall McMurphy

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vinylspiros

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vinylspiros

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JusSumguy

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vinylspiros

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TeUnit

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JusSumguy

Chipmonger

vinylspiros

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Randall McMurphy

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vinylspiros

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JusSumguy

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vinylspiros

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vinylspiros

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hobonc

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vinylspiros

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