Checking it Down: Optimal Satellite Bubble Play?

Z

Zer0-0uts

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So everyone talks about collusion on sites. I want to talk about, "Implied Collusion." I want to sort of rant about an idiot on ignition Poker. I was playing in a satellite for a $10 tournament ticket to any $10 + $1 tournament on the site. The buy in was $2.00 + .20c. If I remember things right there were about 40 or so players in the satellite. The satellite paid a $10 ticket to the top 8 finishers. So it gets down to 2 table left. I am stacked decent. As things progressed and the bubble grew closer I tightened up, as did most stacked players. There was this one guy who kept betting and betting and betting. He was stealing pot after pot because people didn't want to waste chips so close to the bubble. There were a few hands were he pulled that crap on me. I had a decent starting hand so I called. I flopped good and he C-bet. I called and he checked down his loosing hand. After about the 3rd or 4th time of this happening against me he stopped messing with me.

Fast forward to the final table. There are 9 players at this final table. 8 players all win a ticket. There is one player who is sitting out with the smallest stack of the final table. At the start of the final table the guy has about 10 BB left in his stack. He is sitting out. Everyone else at the final table is stacked well enough to just play the blinds and check down every hand to guarantee a win. Not this idiot though. He wants to bet ever single hand. He is stealing pot after pot. Everyone else at the table gets it. Everyone else understands the simplicity of just play your blinds when it's your turn and check down until the short stack is gone.

The moral of this story, the reason for this post is to say if you are playing in a satellite tournament and you are in a situation like this PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, play smart. Don't be an idiot.
eGx927
 
Nintendo

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This was a good read. It seems like there is at least 1 player like that in the field.
 
N

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The actual moral of your story should state “My chance to Rant”
Oh by the Way, please look up the meaning of Collusion

If you have been around poker long enough, you would of seen; heard; or read that moves like that are frequently done by seasoned pros, who are able to read the table and determined that a bunch of weak or scared players that do not want to risk getting knocked out so close to the bubble.

This is a classic move on a scared table by someone who understands the advantages of these types of situations.

Actually I tip off my hat to the aggressor on that table; he played a good strategic game when the bubble was in play.
 
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Robmrjet

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......Blind thief

:hahaha:
The actual moral of your story should state “My chance to Rant”
Oh by the Way, please look up the meaning of Collusion

If you have been around poker long enough, you would of seen; heard; or read that moves like that are frequently done by seasoned pros, who are able to read the table and determined that a bunch of weak or scared players that do not want to risk getting knocked out so close to the bubble.

This is a classic move on a scared table by someone who understands the advantages of these types of situations.

Actually I tip off my hat to the aggressor on that table; he played a good strategic game when the bubble was in play.
:vroam:

:listen: ..You should at least apologize for taking his chips. :dontknow:


((cuz he think'n it was you now...you play the same sites )) :laugh:
 
Robmrjet

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Curiosity killed the cat, not Paul Harvey.

So everyone talks about collusion on sites. I want to talk about, "Implied Collusion." I want to sort of rant about an idiot on Ignition Poker. I was playing in a satellite for a $10 tournament ticket to any $10 + $1 tournament on the site. The buy in was $2.00 + .20c. If I remember things right there were about 40 or so players in the satellite. The satellite paid a $10 ticket to the top 8 finishers. So it gets down to 2 table left. I am stacked decent. As things progressed and the bubble grew closer I tightened up, as did most stacked players. There was this one guy who kept betting and betting and betting. He was stealing pot after pot because people didn't want to waste chips so close to the bubble. There were a few hands were he pulled that crap on me. I had a decent starting hand so I called. I flopped good and he C-bet. I called and he checked down his loosing hand. After about the 3rd or 4th time of this happening against me he stopped messing with me.

Fast forward to the final table. There are 9 players at this final table. 8 players all win a ticket. There is one player who is sitting out with the smallest stack of the final table. At the start of the final table the guy has about 10 BB left in his stack. He is sitting out. Everyone else at the final table is stacked well enough to just play the blinds and check down every hand to guarantee a win. Not this idiot though. He wants to bet ever single hand. He is stealing pot after pot. Everyone else at the table gets it. Everyone else understands the simplicity of just play your blinds when it's your turn and check down until the short stack is gone.

The moral of this story, the reason for this post is to say if you are playing in a satellite tournament and you are in a situation like this PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, play smart. Don't be an idiot.
eGx927

Sorry you had to go through that.

So...you never said how that blind thief finished, how you finished, or....
how that short stack finished.

((in my younger days...i listened to Paul Harvey on the radio everyday))

So...
how did everyone do at the end?
Just curious, to the rest...of the story.

:bebored:
 
Z

Zer0-0uts

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IMPLICIT NOT IMPLIED (my bad)... Let me break it down for NBB

The actual moral of your story should state “My chance to Rant”
Oh by the Way, please look up the meaning of Collusion
LOL, no my friend I should have called it by what it is known. I was wrong. It is called, "Implicit Collusion."
Here it is for you. I will show you a few different links so you can follow along.

"In a tournament where, for example, only the top 5 players are paid and there are 6 remaining (the last of whom is terribly short-stacked), implicit collusion involves all players at the table flat-calling through the river for the maximum likelihood that the short stack be busted by having all hands see the finish. This strategy is never mentioned at the table, merely assumed."
http://www.pokertips.org/glossary/w/IMPLICIT+COLLUSION

"This occurs during a tournament when the last five players will be in the money, but there are six players still in the game. Implicit collusion is when everyone at the table will flat call (meaning they will not raise) in order to try to bust out the low stack player who will use up his remaining chips if he or she stays in the game. This is not illegal, and it is normally not something anyone talks about or brings up at the table. That is why it is called 'implicit'."
https://www.pokervip.com/poker-terms/implicit-collusion

If you want to read further than this about IMPLICIT COLLUSION then allow me to refer you to a book by Collin Moshman called, "Sit 'n Go Strategy, Expert Advice For Beating One-Table Poker Tournaments." The book was published by 2+2=4.This is where I first heard of the term. Although I did not remember exactly what the term was called, I did remember exactly what it was about and how it works. Obviously it is something you have yet to grasp.

I hope I broke it down enough for you so you can follow along with the rest of this thread.

If you have been around poker long enough, you would of seen; heard; or read that moves like that are frequently done by seasoned pros, who are able to read the table and determined that a bunch of weak or scared players that do not want to risk getting knocked out so close to the bubble.

This is a classic move on a scared table by someone who understands the advantages of these types of situations.
If you had any since of anything at all, and if you read my post you would've seen that I said the top 8 won a ticket. There was 9 players left at the final table, and one player sitting out who had 10 BB. Everyone else was well stacked above 10 BB. How is betting andstealing pots in this situation at all adventageous to the player doing it. In fact there was a hand where the idiot player who did not understand implicit collusion bet all in on a hand. A player who had him covered called his all in. Luckily for the idiot, he had the same hand as the player who called him. The pot was chopped and the game continued. Had the idiot lost, the player who was sitting out, who had only about 5 BB at that point would have won a ticket and the idiot would have busted out. Do you understand the advantages of these types of situations?

Actually I tip off my hat to the aggressor on that table; he played a good strategic game when the bubble was in play.
Really? Your hat is off to a player who almost let a 5 BB person who was sitting out, win a sattelite ticket, because he didn't understand, or perhaps was too stupid to see that if he only played his blinds and checked down he was guaranteed a win? he took a chance and almost lost. Everyone else in the tourney knew what to do, but one donkey had to let his ego get in the way and he almost lost to a player with 5 BB who was sitting out. It seems the player who was sitting out understands things better than you.

Oh wait, you were that player huh? My bad!
 
schtiuky

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Bubble play can be exploited in many ways that is just one of thouse. Pros offten do that its just about the amount of time you youse thouse strategies. too many hands in a row will get you aggro someone.
 
Z

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So...
how did everyone do at the end?
Just curious, to the rest...of the story.

:bebored:

Well of course the villain won a ticket, I won a ticket, and the short stack blinded out.
 
okeedokalee

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Where was the implied collusion?
 
Robmrjet

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NBB....??....
I'm not one to say I told you so......
so....
here's a beer instead. :D
:beer:

(( ...good tilt.....));)



LOL, no my friend I should have called it by what it is known. I was wrong. It is called, "Implicit Collusion."
Here it is for you. I will show you a few different links so you can follow along.

"In a tournament where, for example, only the top 5 players are paid and there are 6 remaining (the last of whom is terribly short-stacked), implicit collusion involves all players at the table flat-calling through the river for the maximum likelihood that the short stack be busted by having all hands see the finish. This strategy is never mentioned at the table, merely assumed."
http://www.pokertips.org/glossary/w/IMPLICIT+COLLUSION

"This occurs during a tournament when the last five players will be in the money, but there are six players still in the game. Implicit collusion is when everyone at the table will flat call (meaning they will not raise) in order to try to bust out the low stack player who will use up his remaining chips if he or she stays in the game. This is not illegal, and it is normally not something anyone talks about or brings up at the table. That is why it is called 'implicit'."
https://www.pokervip.com/poker-terms/implicit-collusion

If you want to read further than this about IMPLICIT COLLUSION then allow me to refer you to a book by Collin Moshman called, "Sit 'n Go Strategy, Expert Advice For Beating One-Table Poker Tournaments." The book was published by 2+2=4.This is where I first heard of the term. Although I did not remember exactly what the term was called, I did remember exactly what it was about and how it works. Obviously it is something you have yet to grasp.

I hope I broke it down enough for you so you can follow along with the rest of this thread.

If you had any since of anything at all, and if you read my post you would've seen that I said the top 8 won a ticket. There was 9 players left at the final table, and one player sitting out who had 10 BB. Everyone else was well stacked above 10 BB. How is betting andstealing pots in this situation at all adventageous to the player doing it. In fact there was a hand where the idiot player who did not understand implicit collusion bet all in on a hand. A player who had him covered called his all in. Luckily for the idiot, he had the same hand as the player who called him. The pot was chopped and the game continued. Had the idiot lost, the player who was sitting out, who had only about 5 BB at that point would have won a ticket and the idiot would have busted out. Do you understand the advantages of these types of situations?


Really? Your hat is off to a player who almost let a 5 BB person who was sitting out, win a sattelite ticket, because he didn't understand, or perhaps was too stupid to see that if he only played his blinds and checked down he was guaranteed a win? he took a chance and almost lost. Everyone else in the tourney knew what to do, but one donkey had to let his ego get in the way and he almost lost to a player with 5 BB who was sitting out. It seems the player who was sitting out understands things better than you.

Oh wait, you were that player huh? My bad!

SO ....you are admitting to collusion?
And you are mad because the other guy wouldn't co-operate?

shame on you!!!!!:D

((you going to be in trouble when your poker site troll reads this))

((collusion..is a really big no no))

HEY!!....
do play the 8 seat SNG's on BOL by chance? :D:D

no special reason..just...asking. :bom:

(the payout 4 places you know?) :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Keep in mind, I'm only asking out of curiosity. :D


~~~OK MODS..simmer down now...it's an innocent thread~~~:angel:

((seriously though..do you?)):cool::D;):confused::)
 
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Hi Okeedokalee

Don't waste your time on him, he reads a section in a book and totally mis-understands the actual concept of what was actually happening on his table.
 
Robmrjet

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Where was the implied collusion?

He can't tell you.
Then it wouldn't be implied.
It would be collusion.

And his poker site maybe trolling CC.

And then.......because they did a word search on CC in the forums,
his poker troll would have him marked for suspicion of collusion,
or worst yet, testimonial proof of collusion.

Nope....
he can't tell you where it was at.

It would go past implied...straight to all out collusion then.

And if I'm not mistaken...even CC has rules...about posts that imply..collusion.
:bebored:

Yeah..I'm sure I read it on CC somewhere.

It's best we just leave it at implied.
Think about it. ALL those emails, and phone calls, and Live Chat conversations he's going to have to make to his poker site.
Just because his poker site troll.....read all this.

HEY POKER SITE TROLL DUDE!!....we're all just joking here!!...
you can't take none of serious!...
Seriously...you can't.

((i'm attempting to imply we're all innocent here)):D
 
LumeBStackin

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Did you bubble the sat or make it in? I see players play crazy like this in sngs all the time. In satellites I've even folded pocket aces pre flop. It's just not worth risking your tournament life if there our others with shorter stacks going to get eliminated.

I feel your frustration, but there our crazy poker players always. We should be thankful for their ignorance in the long run.
 
10058765

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The actual moral of your story should state “My chance to Rant”
Oh by the Way, please look up the meaning of Collusion

If you have been around poker long enough, you would of seen; heard; or read that moves like that are frequently done by seasoned pros, who are able to read the table and determined that a bunch of weak or scared players that do not want to risk getting knocked out so close to the bubble.

This is a classic move on a scared table by someone who understands the advantages of these types of situations.

Actually I tip off my hat to the aggressor on that table; he played a good strategic game when the bubble was in play.

It's bubbletime in a satelite, with the lowest stack sitting out for all sake.
It may sound like bad sportmanship but the only right strategy for the other players is to fold everything with lightning speed to eliminate the player sitting out as fast as possible.
That is not collusion...that is just common sense.

Obviously in a regular tournament the strategy of villain is good, but most likely he would have been played back.
 
Robmrjet

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It's bubbletime in a satelite, with the lowest stack sitting out for all sake.
It may sound like bad sportmanship but the only right strategy for the other players is to fold everything with lightning speed to eliminate the player sitting out as fast as possible.
That is not collusion...that is just common sense.

Obviously in a regular tournament the strategy of villain is good, but most likely he would have been played back.

It's like that Thread going about poker being a sin.
A sin is not a sin unless you know or think it is a sin.
THEN..it's a sin for you.

This was not collusion until the OP wanted it to be collusion,
knowing collusion would be the best way to play.

THEN...for the OP?...oh yeah..it was collusion all up in his mind. lol

Me?
I see nothing, I hearing nothing, I say....nothing!
(we need a Sgt. Shultz emoticon for sure)

I just fold. Because everyone else is. :bandit:

So it must be a good thing.
And I want to play good like them. :bebored:


well...I have to go now...I've got a 4 place equal payout in a 8 seat SNG on BOL to go to.

I'll ck back in with ya'll later aye? :icon_sant
 
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Serjo600

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The proud and pontavice jam, what's the point in writing this heresy if it makes no sense, there are more than ten types of players, all you **** to adjust to villain and as it often happens, maniacs-fish often hit the flop with trash because they are in the distance that played. And it is logical that their skill is more powerful than those who are waiting for super hands. There is no clear recommendation how to play, it's not chess. Learn mathpart...
 
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This is not collusion, as I dont think villain did anything wrong. He is intitled to play and use his chips anyway he wants. I agree that his play is probably - ev, but one can argue that there is no guarantee that the sit out comes back and double up. Then he would be in a better spot then the rest of you.

Just my 2 cents
 
Shells

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I don't see any kind of 'collusion' in the OP, but I do understand what he was getting at. I'd like to think I would be the chip stealer, even in a satty.

In the meantime, the title has been edited.
 
Gabinho12345

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If he has the biggest stack at the table he can shove any two cards and you have to fold any two cards, that's pretty standard. Why would you check down every hand and give sitout more time to come back?
 
Z

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I don't see any kind of 'collusion' in the OP, but I do understand what he was getting at. I'd like to think I would be the chip stealer, even in a satty.

In the meantime, the title has been edited.
Lol and thank you Shell :)
 
Z

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As for the rest of you naysayers, it is mathematically wrong to play your stack in that manner under the given circumstances.
 
Robmrjet

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So True

As for the rest of you naysayers, it is mathematically wrong to play your stack in that manner under the given circumstances.

If you're not in it win to it.


Feel free to comment in the "Do you ever intentionally lose?" thread.


A lot of folks there have an opinion on not caring of you're the winner.


I don't mind losing myself.
As long as I win. :confused:
 
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