Checking it down?

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dragonflyamb

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I would like to know the thoughts of more experienced players than me on this point. In a tournament, when the small stack is all in and two larger stacks have called, but are not all in themselves. Should the two larger stacks just check the entire hand? In both live and online tournaments, I have seen players get upset when this is NOT done, with the idea being if both big stacks stay in the hand the odds of one of them beating the all-in player is greater. On the other, if one of the big stacks hits and is pretty sure they can beat the all-in, what is wrong with them making a bet and trying to win more money from the other stack?
Do you think this situation should always be checked down, or is it ok to go ahead and bet?
 
Lucothefish

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Well the power-double-check-down move is really a bubble tactic and even then you can bet out if you're confident you have the shortie beat (but you prolly shouldn't).

Any other time you can bet out if you think you're ahead, just don't bluff at side pots - what you gain in chips you lose in table image every time, save your FE for later.
 
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dragonflyamb

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I completely agree with not bluffing at the side pots. Since you still have to beat the all in player, I think you should have something credible to bet the side.

Makes sense that checking it down is a bubble strategy, i hadn't thought of it that way.

My thinking is that if I have a strong enough hand to bet in the side pot then why shouldn't i do so to strengthen my own stack? But I have seen other players get upset when this is not done.
 
imafin

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if the short stacked allin player is also on the bubble, that really should be the only time everyone is to check out. if you have plenty of chips and you've got a pretty decent hand, i'd make the other checker pay a bit after the turn card and for sure on the river.
 
LuckyBundy13

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Strictly bubble strategy imo. The only way I'm betting out is if I'm crushing the other "check" dude's range or if they are a complete nit.
 
Tropwen

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The only time I will check it down is when it will benefit me and help me win the pot or if id be bluffing and if that means check it down to burst the bubble then hell ya :D but if I believe I have the better hand I'm gonna try and get as many chips as I can but as far as people getting mad ? Were not on a team why would I help anyone at my table by not betting? I just laugh when they get angry :hahaha:
 
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detourglr

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something else you have to consider too.. if you have the nuts and check it down you could be penatlize for conclusion... So tournaments you have to bet the nuts..
Myself I feel this hurts you more than it helps you.. if you think you are ahead bet it.. You already can win the all in already, it is time to concentrate on taking the other people chips that are still in a hand..

the only people I have seen get upset about this when people are on a draw and they want free cards. thus is any other time you bet to keep out the draws this time is no other option..
Also you have to decide if you are playing to win or if you are playing to at least cash... if it is cash then maybe checking it down on the bubble (or close to the bubble) is an option. But if you are playing to win the tournament, then you play the hand as you normally would and dont worry about checking down the hand.
 
RiverMeTimbers

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Yeah most players especially in live tourneys get real upset if you bet at a dead pot.
 
PLAYINBIG

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I seen it happen last night on BOVADA .The BB was all in with a low chip stack. Mid position called.I was in the cut off position with big chip stack & called.The flop came low cards Mid checked,I checked.The turn flopped an Ace.Mid position pushed another 1,500 chips to put him/her all in with A/6 unsuited.I called with A/Q suited and had taken the pot down.I was willing to check it down but mid position pushed on me.After he had checked the flop & pushed on the turn ,no doubt I thought he had an Ace.It cost him his tourney life.I think its best to check it down unless you have the absolute nuts.For all mid position knew, BB could of had A/K,QQ any hand that could of stood a chance to beat us both before the flop.
 
MediaBLITZ

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I don't mind the other guy betting at the pot. Many times I just called as a safety move. BUT when they bet out with like 2nd pair to go heads up versus the all in, then double the guy up - WHEN a check down would have given you a straight to crush the set of threes that the all in hit on the flop - AND it's either the bubble or a money tier stage. Now that actually is a bit upsetting.

As I usually say when the guy bets out - "Okay, just take care of business and we are good."
 
Arjonius

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You should do what's in your own best interest. Many time at the bubble or pay jumps, that is checking down. However, not always. It may not happen often, but there can be situations where it's to your advantage to bet into a dry side pot. One possible example is if you have a massive stack and your table is letting you steal the blinds with impunity. You basically gain nothing when the bubble breaks because your chances of not cashing are effectively 0 even if you double up a small stack. And if that does happens, you simply replace them by stealing a few more blinds. Depending on the blinds and stacks, it's possible that betting into the dry side pot can be more in your interest than checking down, which doesn't guarantee the small stack will lose anyway.
 
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Blue_Fossil

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Safest strategy on the bubble is to check it down. If the bubble is no where near, go ahead and play.

With that said, there is nothing sweeter than to brutalize the guy who ignores the aforementioned protocol and bets at the pot anyway - only for me (or someone else at table) to have the nuts and crush him.
 
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ssbn743

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something else you have to consider too.. if you have the nuts and check it down you could be penatlize for conclusion... So tournaments you have to bet the nuts..

Myself I feel this hurts you more than it helps you.. if you think you are ahead bet it.. You already can win the all in already, it is time to concentrate on taking the other people chips that are still in a hand..

the only people I have seen get upset about this when people are on a draw and they want free cards. thus is any other time you bet to keep out the draws this time is no other option..

Also you have to decide if you are playing to win or if you are playing to at least cash... if it is cash then maybe checking it down on the bubble (or close to the bubble) is an option. But if you are playing to win the tournament, then you play the hand as you normally would and dont worry about checking down the hand.

First of all – it is against TDA rules to even say “check it down?” when in that situation!

Now from an etiquette standpoint, this is certainly one of the un-written rules. However, the thought that you could possibly be penalized for not betting the nuts is ridiculous. It’s your hand, you can do whatever you want and no one is going to say it’s collusion – there are far worse, more detrimental, and blatant examples of actual collusion.

Personally, I wouldn’t bet the nuts either – you most likely will not get called and you have to flip you hand over anyway. You can try a little value bet if you like, but checking the nuts is perfectly acceptable – and you won’t be accused of cheating.
 
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ssbn743

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I don't mind the other guy betting at the pot. Many times I just called as a safety move. BUT when they bet out with like 2nd pair to go heads up versus the all in, then double the guy up - WHEN a check down would have given you a straight to crush the set of threes that the all in hit on the flop - AND it's either the bubble or a money tier stage. Now that actually is a bit upsetting.

As I usually say when the guy bets out - "Okay, just take care of business and we are good."

Agree; that’s very upsetting. I see it all the time with above average players that don’t understand the bigger picture – or with players that have no brakes.
 
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TIMNILES44

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I kinda feel if you 2 people calling an all in bet ,alls goes . You arent playing for 2nd place your playing to win.Isnt that why they call it poker ? In freindly game no harm but in most cases how friendly is poker .LOL The object of poker is to get all the chips if you have the hand take it!If you upset someone at the table sounds like to me you've got your next victim almost tilted .
 
kidkvno1

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I don't mind the other guy betting at the pot. Many times I just called as a safety move. BUT when they bet out with like 2nd pair to go heads up versus the all in, then double the guy up - WHEN a check down would have given you a straight to crush the set of threes that the all in hit on the flop - AND it's either the bubble or a money tier stage. Now that actually is a bit upsetting.

As I usually say when the guy bets out - "Okay, just take care of business and we are good."

lol at the times i told the other guy i could of knocked out the the SS if he had not bet, and that he would still be in the game if he had just checked it down.
 
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inflnlte

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If there is no side pot, I dont think theres a reason to bet unless if you have a made hand. I really hate it when the other guy starts betting and only has a gut shot str8 draw or something. Theres no reason to help the small stack all in, especially when theres not a big side pot.
 
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ssbn743

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lol at the times i told the other guy i could of knocked out the the SS if he had not bet, and that he would still be in the game if he had just checked it down.

Now I have seen this well out of the money as well – just yesterday in fact.

I had a borderline NIT that kept limping in every hand with a monster stack that he got by getting lucky. I kept raising and he kept calling.

Finally with about a 15M stack I called the SB’s all-in from the BB for about 5M with an A 10. Of course my UTG limping NIT friend called too – because naturally he had a hand that was strong enough to limp call an all-in with from UTG, sigh…

Anyway I led out on the flop – hoping to make him go away, he didn’t and called instead. So on the river I pushed all-in with Ace high and he folded. I lost to the SB’s K 9 but won the side pot. The NIT then started cussing at me and telling me what an idiot I was and that I should’ve checked it down because he could've have knocked the SB out.

However, we were well out of the money and dickhead shouldn’t have even been in the pot – I just thanked him for saving my bacon and told him to shut up! LOL! I think I actually made 1K!

So I can see this going both ways – however in this thread I believe we are primarily talking about bubble time – out of the money the rules change IMO.
 
wagon596

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I check it down, unless I improve my hand.
 
kidkvno1

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Now I have seen this well out of the money as well – just yesterday in fact.

I had a borderline NIT that kept limping in every hand with a monster stack that he got by getting lucky. I kept raising and he kept calling.

Finally with about a 15M stack I called the SB’s all-in from the BB for about 5M with an A 10. Of course my UTG limping NIT friend called too – because naturally he had a hand that was strong enough to limp call an all-in with from UTG, sigh…

Anyway I led out on the flop – hoping to make him go away, he didn’t and called instead. So on the river I pushed all-in with Ace high and he folded. I lost to the SB’s K 9 but won the side pot. The NIT then started cussing at me and telling me what an idiot I was and that I should’ve checked it down because he could've have knocked the SB out.

However, we were well out of the money and dickhead shouldn’t have even been in the pot – I just thanked him for saving my bacon and told him to shut up! LOL! I think I actually made 1K!

So I can see this going both ways – however in this thread I believe we are primarily talking about bubble time – out of the money the rules change IMO.
He is not a Nit, if he's limping with every hand.
If he had still been in the hand, you would of been 1 more spot closer to cashing, but now you've got someone with the same size stack who can take you out.
Unless you landed the flop and landed it hard, it's best to check it down.
 
TheKid84

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Im always checking it down, unless I make a hand of trips or better (using my two whole cards). If I make my hand, I'm looking for a value bet. My main goal is to get people out of the tournament, that's not me, and get some chips as well.
 
MediaBLITZ

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First of all – it is against TDA rules to even say “check it down?” when in that situation!

Now from an etiquette standpoint, this is certainly one of the un-written rules. However, the thought that you could possibly be penalized for not betting the nuts is ridiculous. It’s your hand, you can do whatever you want and no one is going to say it’s collusion – there are far worse, more detrimental, and blatant examples of actual collusion.

Personally, I wouldn’t bet the nuts either – you most likely will not get called and you have to flip you hand over anyway. You can try a little value bet if you like, but checking the nuts is perfectly acceptable – and you won’t be accused of cheating.
CHECK WITH YOUR gambling HOUSE
Many tournaments stipulate you must bet the absolute nuts on the river (even up to re-raising any action) - you cannot check it down. You will be penalized. Just saw a guy last week get an orbit penalty for it. They even made him leave the poker room. The thing is the dealer didn't catch it - it was another player and they had to call the floor over to invoke the penalty.
Two years ago Darvin Moon got penalized in the ME for checking it down (so he could see the other guy's hand).
Checking the nuts on the river is not only UNacceptable - it is against the rules in many tournaments worldwide. It comes under the heading of soft play.
I do not think this rule exists in Roberts Rules of Poker.
 
bullishwwd

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I seen it happen last night on BOVADA .The BB was all in with a low chip stack. Mid position called.I was in the cut off position with big chip stack & called.The flop came low cards Mid checked,I checked.The turn flopped an Ace.Mid position pushed another 1,500 chips to put him/her all in with A/6 unsuited.I called with A/Q suited and had taken the pot down.I was willing to check it down but mid position pushed on me.After he had checked the flop & pushed on the turn ,no doubt I thought he had an Ace.It cost him his tourney life.I think its best to check it down unless you have the absolute nuts.For all mid position knew, BB could of had A/K,QQ any hand that could of stood a chance to beat us both before the flop.
EXACTLY.

Normally it is wise to check it down, but if you "know" you have the absolute nuts, one should go all-in on the river.

Having said that however, I once had AAAA (thinking I had the absolute nuts) and I went all-in on the river only to discover that I was actually beaten by a 5 high straight flush. I was "blinded" at the time by all those Aces (and, maybe that second or third glass of scotch).
 
bezobrazny

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It depends

I would like to know the thoughts of more experienced players than me on this point. In a tournament, when the small stack is all in and two larger stacks have called, but are not all in themselves. Should the two larger stacks just check the entire hand? In both live and online tournaments, I have seen players get upset when this is NOT done, with the idea being if both big stacks stay in the hand the odds of one of them beating the all-in player is greater. On the other, if one of the big stacks hits and is pretty sure they can beat the all-in, what is wrong with them making a bet and trying to win more money from the other stack?
Do you think this situation should always be checked down, or is it ok to go ahead and bet?

There are several situations when you should raise on my opinion. If you have the best hand you should try to earn a bit more from the other player in hand if that is possible by small raises. The other situation is pretty same for play, when you don't have the best hand but you should be very careful there. The third option is when you have nothing, then you should use the check/fold button but that also depends how big is a difference between the basic pot and that extra of you two. If you can fight for that extra and it is worth of fight then you should fight with some light bluff raise.
 
SavagePenguin

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You're only in the game for yourself, so do what serves your interests.

When you're in the money or on the bubble, often winning a short stack's chips are less advantageous than knocking him out. In these cases you check it down and essentially gang up to eliminate a mutual enemy.

Even if you planned on checking it down, if your hand develops into a strong one then go ahead and bet. Again, you are only in it for you so go ahead and try to get more chips in.

Bluffing the other big stack out of the pot, or betting a draw, or betting with a mediocre hand (like top pair) is a bad move and a big faux pas. Not only are you giving the short stack a much better chance at more-than-tripling up (which is the opposite of what you and everybody else at the table wants), but other players may mark you as someone who doesn't play by the unwritten rules so they might not be willing to help knock out players with you in the future.
That is, you are shooting yourself (and the rest of the table) in the foot this hand, and you are creating distrust that could help prevent knocking out others.
 
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