Changing Styles?

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ssbn743

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Like many of us that blog on this site, I read just about every book or article on poker I can find. However, recently I ran across a book called “Secrets of Professional Tournament Poker” by Jonathan Little and really like most of what he had to say.

For years, a major hole in my game is that I am aggressive but get some of the details wrong. I’ve never read another book that advises some of things Little does but it I like cause it gives the aggression some structure – there’s not so much random in my bet sizing and decision making process, though it kind of seems like there is, and I really like it. I also like how he all but discounts the M value system, saying “it’s just too complicated”.

So I put his suggestions to work, particularly with bet sizing as it relates to not only my stack, but everyone else’s stack as well. For reference Little recommends the following:

STACK/BET SIZE

125BB +/3BB
70-125BB/2.75BB
40-70BB/2.5BB
12-40BB/2.25BB
<12BB/All-in

Limpers in the pot
60BB+/4.5BB
27-60BB/4BB
15-27BB/3.5BB
<15BB/All-in

Add 1BB for each additional limper in the pot
From the blinds add an extra .5BB to any bet
If any bet exceeds 30% of your stack then All-in

With that the following hand took place; I’ll post the results later.

I have about 13.5K and am in seat 5 and have the button in a live $160 buy in event with 20 minute blind level and 15K starting stacks. Blinds are $400 $800 no ante.

I’m dealt :10c4: :10d4: and seat 2 and seat 3 both limp in for $800 with stacks similar to my own. From the button I raise to $3600 and of course both of the weak players to my right call.

Pot Size: $12K

Flop- :3s4: :4d4: :5c4:

Both seat 2 and seat 3 check to me and I move all in for a little less than $10K.

Now I like this spot; and I really have to credit Little for getting me here. If it were me, without reading Little, I would have raised the button, but probably only to $2K or $2400 making the pot very awkward with my stack. This is something I have always had trouble with. As it stands with this mentality it was a no brainer decision and full of well-timed aggression. I think, anyway, but what do you think? I’ll post results of this hand later.
 
TeUnit

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hes a great player, i really liked his videos back in the day
 
Rappyness

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Wow, that is not bad. I haven't read nor seen his video but from what you showed I will definitely check his book out. Thanks for shining the light on his book! I kind of have the same problem as you got right now with the aggression!
 
MediaBLITZ

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Okay, thought this was pretty standard - glad Little was able to help you out on this.
 
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ssbn743

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Okay, thought this was pretty standard - glad Little was able to help you out on this.

The hands nothing special, I just cited it to contrast how I would have played the same hand before reading Little’s book.

I’ve always kind of been of the opinion that aggression is just something that can’t be taught but rather learned as you progress as a player. I still think that’s true on many levels – but at the same time he takes a lot of the guess work out of figuring out exactly how to be aggressive.

I would argue, after trying his approach for 3 full tournaments now that it’s probably more complicated than M values– not less as he suggests. Figuring out the math is taxing and especially since my normal tournaments are filled with weak players that constantly limp into the pot.

In the end I just like how sizing your bets and choosing your spots correctly makes most of the decisions easy. Unfortunately that’s not enough sometimes.

I was dealt :10c4: :10d4: and shoved the :3s4: :4d4: :5c4: flop. Seat 2 folded and seat 3 instantly called.

He showed :6c4: :6h4:

River - :4c4:

River - :2d4:

Haha! Sometimes you just can’t beat the idiots! :)
 
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I think that this play would hae been alot better if you held AA , KK , with 10s on a fishy table I dont really want to see a flop with 3 opponents (and fish love calling to see the flop) . After raising 3.6 k of a stack of 13.5k we have a shitty spot if a J,Q,K or A flops. We are then left with alittle more than 10BB and might be folding the best hand if we decide to fold on bad flop. Wouldnt it be a much simpler scenario if you just jam the flop . If everyone folds great we pick up the blinds and limpers dead money , if a fish decides to call then we are more than likelly dominating his hand after a limp. Easy game. I think what little is saying with his bet sizing , is correct but has to be used in the right circumstances. What im saying is that raising 4.5 BB of a 15BB stack is not optimal strategy agains fishy oponents , but might work better in a more agressive game with maniacs to the left. I also think that reading books is not enough to win todays games if you dont learn to addapt to the games dynamics.
Books are great and give you a good foundation on the strategys of poker but more impotantly you need to learn how to exploit people by adjusting to game flow.
 
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MediaBLITZ

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The hands nothing special, I just cited it to contrast how I would have played the same hand before reading Little’s book.

I’ve always kind of been of the opinion that aggression is just something that can’t be taught but rather learned as you progress as a player. I still think that’s true on many levels – but at the same time he takes a lot of the guess work out of figuring out exactly how to be aggressive.

I would argue, after trying his approach for 3 full tournaments now that it’s probably more complicated than M values– not less as he suggests. Figuring out the math is taxing and especially since my normal tournaments are filled with weak players that constantly limp into the pot.

In the end I just like how sizing your bets and choosing your spots correctly makes most of the decisions easy. Unfortunately that’s not enough sometimes.

Full disclosure - I've actually had one on one coaching with Mr. Little and let me tell you - math and it's ease of use is strictly relative. He wrapped my head (warped?) around Nash's Equilibrium for strategic use in poker (as in John Nash, as in "A Beautiful Mind") - so Little's "easier math" - well... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - yeah sure buddy - whatever you say (glassy eyed stare while I nod).
But I have to think if we stick with it it will become more and more automatic as we run into similar situation over and over.

But yeah, he definitely helped me to consistently run deep in large fields (several hundred to over a thousand) and I have cashed several. No win yet but I've only played maybe about a dozen to 20 or so (since carving out 6-8 hours for a tournament isn't as easy as I thought it might be).

I am on the cusp of going back through both of his books (after I do Poker Theory for the third time).
 
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ssbn743

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Full disclosure - I've actually had one on one coaching with Mr. Little and let me tell you - math and it's ease of use is strictly relative. He wrapped my head (warped?) around Nash's Equilibrium for strategic use in poker (as in John Nash, as in "A Beautiful Mind") - so Little's "easier math" - well... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - yeah sure buddy - whatever you say (glassy eyed stare while I nod).

But I have to think if we stick with it it will become more and more automatic as we run into similar situation over and over.

But yeah, he definitely helped me to consistently run deep in large fields (several hundred to over a thousand) and I have cashed several. No win yet but I've only played maybe about a dozen to 20 or so (since carving out 6-8 hours for a tournament isn't as easy as I thought it might be).

I am on the cusp of going back through both of his books (after I do Poker Theory for the third time).

When I first started reading it I didn’t really like it. He kind of rambles in what seems to be incoherent paragraphs that should be two or three separate paragraphs – sometimes he’ll have three thoughts in six paragraphs. But actually, after you get used to his very unique writing style and explanations – it makes a great deal of sense! I was really impressed – it may be the best poker book I’ve ever read!

Yeah the math is crazy, and I feel I’m good at math, but…

Imagine the blinds at $1200 and $2400 with a $300 ante. OK, first determine how deep your stack is. Since most likely you’ll be in his "2.25 or 2.5 times the blind plus the ante range"; now tell me quickly how much an open raise should be. If you said $5700 or $6300 you’re right. Now tell me how much to raise if there’s a limper or two limpers…and it only gets worse…

Yeah, its nuts. Especially as you’re sitting there for twelve hours having to re-do this math 400 times. It would be great if there was a shortcut but unfortunately too much of his base changes – it all depends on your stack. It is a lot of work as the blinds get higher and your stack gets smaller – but is absolutely worth it. You toss out a $6300 chip raise and everyone looks at you like you’re a mad man and super loose, even though it’s a well thought out and calculated amount – I love it, I wish I’d have read his book years ago!
 
MediaBLITZ

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Lol - exactly!!! I even called him out on his "stream of consciousness" writing style and he totally confessed. If you have Vol 2 then you see how he had to back track on some topics. In a lot of ways Vol 2 is really Vol 1.

But yeah, great stuff if you can kind of reshuffle it in your head and reorganize it a bit.
 
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Shows how bad my math is as I can't see how you've followed him in your example.

You have 16BB and raise 2000 (2.5BB) or you have 2 limpers + blinds = 2800 and you flat call 800. You haven't added BB for limpers.

Please help coz it makes no sense to me at the moment.
 
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ssbn743

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Shows how bad my math is as I can't see how you've followed him in your example.

You have 16BB and raise 2000 (2.5BB) or you have 2 limpers + blinds = 2800 and you flat call 800. You haven't added BB for limpers.

Please help coz it makes no sense to me at the moment.

So I didn’t do a very good job of explaining it – it was more for reference if you already knew it.

I’ve got 16 Big Blinds with an $800BB. When there is 1 limper in the pot, the raise automatically becomes whatever number Little has listed. So, with one limper in the pot I raise by $2000 to $2800 total. Two limpers, as in the case here, I raise by $2800 to $3600 total.

He adds one additional blind for each additional limper. If I were in one of the blinds, then that raise would be with an additional .5BB, so $4000 in such a case with two limpers - and if anyone of these bets exceeds 30% of your stack the move is all-in; so all-in in the $4000 example with my 16BB stack.

He knows this is hard to keep straight, even for him as he claims. So he says he figures out his raise amount at the begging of each level and remembers them. In this case, I would just remember two numbers, $1800 and $2800, for an open raise and a raise after a limper respectfully. Then all you have to do is adjust the second number by a factor relative to the number of limpers minus one. He also says that once he figures out his raise amounts, he doesn’t change them unless something seriously drastic happens. So even if you happen to dip from 45BB to 35BB in the same level, he’ll just keep his raise amounts in accordance with a 45BB stack.

I was very impressed and really liked it – if you can keep it straight in your head I highly recommend it!
 
MediaBLITZ

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o all-in in the $4000 example with my 16BB stack.

Yeah that was what I was thinking - if this is Little, he's shoving - but I knew that was a rabbit trail to your point.
 
danprince10

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Little is a very smart guy and a great player.
 
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