Care to give me a crash course at SNGs?

I'm a not-terrible (i.e. winning) cash game player and I have hardly played a SNG since before I had any idea what I was doing.

I'm looking to play some SNGs on the side but don't really know how to approach it.

1) What does a SNG player have to know to to not suck at SNGs? (i.e. what makes you better than your opponents?)

2) Early stages of SNGs feel like a cash game to me, is it really good advice to play tight or can I do high variance implied odds/fold equity stuff? (examples: light 3betting or expensive draws with big implied odds)

3) Should I be thinking more about my stack size or pot odds? I mean, assuming my tournament life isn't immediately on the line, should I ever fold because of stack size if my hand can be played profitably?

4) At what M should I accept/decline coinflips? An explanation would help a lot on this one.

5) In the late stages, what cards am I looking for? I know this is M and position dependent, but give me a broad answer, if you can. I mean, are weak broadway cards better or small PP or Ace-rag? My assumption is that I should play for stacks sooner with 22 than something like KJ, and Ax I'm not sure if it's better than 22 or not.

6) Finally, ICM...
I know what it is, I know why it's important, I know nothing more than that.
How much do I need to know to win at the smallest SNGs I can find?
And since it's something that you calculate away from the table, what is the most important stuff to figure out first?


If anyone actually answers all of this, thank you, it will be very much appreciated.

thepokerkid123 said:

1) What does a SNG player have to know to to not suck at SNGs? (i.e. what makes you better than your opponents?)

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Three biggest mistakes people who suck at SNGs make

- Playing too loosely early on. Seriously, I routinely openfold AQ from EP/EMP and most Ax hands from LP. Don't do things like felt with AK preflop early on unless you know you're playing a drooling LAGtard either. The SNG early-game basically exists as a tool to get to the SNG late-game - you shouldn't be getting knocked out before 50/100 (using Stars format) unless you get horribly coolered or bad beaten.

- Calling shoves too wide on the bubble (and in general I guess). Links in with ICM, but when the SB shoves effective 10BBs into your BB you don't call with A5s. Yet with 5-6BBs you can openshove anything from the SB profitably (as long as there's no crazy stuff with stack sizes going on). Sometimes optimal SNG play is incredibly counter-intuitive, especially on the bubble.

- Folding clear pot-odds calls. Getting >2-1 you can profitably call a shove with ATC (again assuming there's no weird bubble stack-size-related reason not to like some guy UTG sitting with 10 chips).

thepokerkid123 said:

2) Early stages of SNGs feel like a cash game to me, is it really good advice to play tight or can I do high variance implied odds/fold equity stuff? (examples: light 3betting or expensive draws with big implied odds)

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Stuff like light 3-betting is horrible in SNGs. The bad players won't fold to a 3-bet ever because they don't like folding and the good players will be openraising so narrow that they generally won't like folding either. I mean in the right situation, sure, but I could count the times I've done in in thousands of SNGs on one hand, probably.

thepokerkid123 said:

3) Should I be thinking more about my stack size or pot odds? I mean, assuming my tournament life isn't immediately on the line, should I ever fold because of stack size if my hand can be played profitably?

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I dunno. All too often I find myself with say 5-10BB and with some guy minraising into my BB. I know I have pot odds to call with anything, but at the same time when you're so short even 1BB represents a significant portion of my stack. I routinely fold in these situations, but I don't know if it's the 'right' play, per se. I know I mentioned declining clear pot-odds calls as a leak earlier but that was in all-in situations.

thepokerkid123 said:

4) At what M should I accept/decline coinflips? An explanation would help a lot on this one.

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Stack sizes again have a huge impact on this. If you're sitting on the bubble with 7BB and some guy who will be the BB next hand has a quarter of a BB, obviously even if someone shoves into us and we know we're flipping we should decline, wheras if we're the shortack by a few BBs or more we should be relatively happy accepting a flip.

thepokerkid123 said:

5) In the late stages, what cards am I looking for? I know this is M and position dependent, but give me a broad answer, if you can. I mean, are weak broadway cards better or small PP or Ace-rag? My assumption is that I should play for stacks sooner with 22 than something like KJ, and Ax I'm not sure if it's better than 22 or not.

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Impossible to give a broad answer unless you want it to be wrong. These are just off the top of my head so don't pay too much attention, but there's a reason I'm posting them which I'll explain after.

At ~10BB, AT+/KJ+/77+ from LP, AJ+/KQs/99+ from MP, AQ+/TT+ from EP (depending on the number of players, obviously if there are only 4 players left you can shove ATo UTG as long as there's no pressing stack-related reason not to.

At ~5BB, ATC from SB, Ax/Kx/Q8+/JT+/22+ from LP, Ax/KT+/QJ/66+ from MP, and I dunno from EP, there are two schools of thought, one that we should just shove anything UTG with 5BB because after the blinds hit us we lose fold equity and another that we should still be selective and look for a good hand to shove/call with in the next orbit even knowing that we have no FE.

Between 5 and 10BB you adjust accordingly. The shorter you get, the wider you have to shove.

thepokerkid123 said:

6) Finally, ICM...
I know what it is, I know why it's important, I know nothing more than that.
How much do I need to know to win at the smallest SNGs I can find?
And since it's something that you calculate away from the table, what is the most important stuff to figure out first?

Click to expand...

To win at the smallest SNGs you can find you just need to not be a drooltard early, use common sense on the bubble by being aware that there's a ~200% ROI difference between bubbling and mincashing in standard 1-table SNGs and acting appropriately. You don't really need to investigate ICM.

Thanks for that, I think you just explained some stuff that would have taken me a lot of losses to figure out.

I pretty much agree with most of what Dorkus said. One very profitable play I have found later in the game is when I have 5-10bb and 1-2 players limp into me from late position - shoving back into them with a wide range. They fold almost 100% of the time.

You definitely have to play very tight in early stages. Like Dorkus I fold AQ in early position and I am only getting all my chips in with AA, KK, QQ and sometimes AK depending on how the action is going.

Once I have less than 15bb's I am rarely raising and never when less than 12-13bb's.

You need to know some ranges for push/fold - I created a chart using sng wizard if you want it. I can come back from 300 chips to win a sng lol. Last night I got down to 690 on one table - built it back to about 1500 - then went back to 690 again. I won that tournament.

Using a HUD really helps make some of the tough decisions. And take notes -you would be surprised how often you see the same players in micro-stakes.

Read Collin Moshman's "Sit'n Go Strategy.

dakota-xx said:

You need to know some ranges for push/fold - I created a chart using sng wizard if you want it. I can come back from 300 chips to win a sng lol. Last night I got down to 690 on one table - built it back to about 1500 - then went back to 690 again. I won that tournament.

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I have a question about this - I have a chart that I use for MTT, it shows what to open shove with from what position depending upon your M and how the table's playing (lose/tight). Is it O.K. to use this for single table as well or is that a bad idea?

relpraggy said:

I have a question about this - I have a chart that I use for MTT, it shows what to open shove with from what position depending upon your M and how the table's playing (lose/tight). Is it O.K. to use this for single table as well or is that a bad idea?

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I don't know - I would need to see it. Pm me if you want me to look at it and I will give you my email address.

done - thanks a million!

Play tight early. You can't really steal any blinds until you are a big stack stealing from tight medium stacks near the bubble. It's not worth it to mix it up too much early but I do like my races. I'm more than happy to race an AK or 99+ against the donkeys at the table. I figure if I win I'm very likely to win 4-6x my buyin, where if I lose I'm only losing the 1 buyin. You just need to pick the right moments. All of my thoughts are for micro SNG's for example the $2 buyins with 18 players. I have a 72% ROI on those so far this year.

If you like short SnG's that only take 5 minutes then you can enter a 9 or 6 person super turbo on fulltilt where you start off with 300 chips. If you place this type its not always about having the best hand but its about knowing when to bet, fold or when to push all in. Since you only have 300 chips and the blinds are 15/30 then you have to play more loose then normal. personally i like this type of SnG and am fairly successful at them.

dakota-xx said:

Using a HUD really helps make some of the tough decisions. And take notes -you would be surprised how often you see the same players in micro-stakes.

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Which stats you using in your HUD dak? I feel that i have to many showing on my HUD.

BEERM4N said:

Which stats you using in your HUD dak? I feel that i have to many showing on my HUD.

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The most useful ones are Vpip, PFR, #of hands, 3bet%, cbet, steal and also rasie first can be useful..

Also i suggest if you are playing a large volume of sng to divide up your stats into certain groups... how someone plays 9 handed isnt going to be much help when your down to heads up.. can be very useful when you have a lot of hands on someone..

phillyfan810 said:

If you like short SnG's that only take 5 minutes then you can enter a 9 or 6 person super turbo on fulltilt where you start off with 300 chips. If you place this type its not always about having the best hand but its about knowing when to bet, fold or when to push all in. Since you only have 300 chips and the blinds are 15/30 then you have to play more loose then normal. personally i like this type of SnG and am fairly successful at them.

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These SNGs are a completely different game all together from regular (and turbo) SNGs. I wouldn't start someone off with these games until they have a basic understanding of how to play regular SNGs.

BEERM4N said:

Which stats you using in your HUD dak? I feel that i have to many showing on my HUD.

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I really only look at VPIP, PFR and AG factor.

WiZZiM said:

The most useful ones are Vpip, PFR, #of hands, 3bet%, cbet, steal and also rasie first can be useful..

Also i suggest if you are playing a large volume of sng to divide up your stats into certain groups... how someone plays 9 handed isnt going to be much help when your down to heads up.. can be very useful when you have a lot of hands on someone..

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I also have mine divided into groups like this.

dakota-xx said:

I really only look at VPIP, PFR and AG factor.



I also have mine divided into groups like this.

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And how might this be accomplished in HEM?

BEERM4N said:

And how might this be accomplished in HEM?

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Umm.. I am a complete idiot when it comes to things like this - I have men do them for me lol.

In HEM go to HUD Options then Additional Hud Filters.

dakota-xx said:

Umm.. I am a complete idiot when it comes to things like this - I have men do them for me lol.

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lol - share you HEM HUD setup files with me??

You've already rec'd some excellent advice thepokerkid123.

I tend to approach SNGs as mini MTTs & use this basic overall strategy (adjusting for position, players' tendencies, & relative chip stacks):

• Early Stage -- Chip preservation/conservation while blinds low >>> Tight = Premium hands
• Mid Stage -- Chip accumulation >>> Tight aggressive = Solid hands + Stealing
• Late Stage -- Chip preservation & accumulation >>> Loose aggressive = ATC from position + Stealing
• ITM (for the SNGs which pay more than just the Final Table) -- Chip preservation & accumulation >>> Tight aggressive = Solid hands + Position + Raises & reraises (no limping/calling unless on a slow play or float)
• Final Table -- Chip accumulation for the Take Down >>> Adjusted strategy = Big emphasis on Position + Relative chip stacks + Players' tendencies (best to target the medium stacks...short stackers = desperate & big stackers = potential KOed)

I primarily play in the 90 or 180-peep SNGs but have dabbled in the Midnight Madness Satellite STT (9-peep SNG).

I just started using the trial version of HEM (but haven't decided which stats will be useful for my skill level) so really appreciate the HUD input from dakota-xx & WiZZiM.

Sit and Go help
If you are going to play a sit and go then the strategy should be to play tight early and then loosen up abit as the blinds go up. Need to play position well in these tourneys. There is an article by Chris Moneymaker that details how this should be done. If you are getting knocked out at around midway that is usually when players start making big moves with their chips. Be carefull not to overvalue your hands at this point. Playing an AJ or AQ against an all in call is not what you want to do. However that being said when you are in the right position you can actually raise with these hands. So for example the blinds are 200 400 and your on the button or close to it and no one raises. Then in this position I would try a 800 raise. Also be aggressive about raising to steal the blinds but not too aggressive. Position is your best strategy in this tourney. When you get large hands raise heavy. Position play will be your best asset in sit and gos. Hope this helps

dsvw56 said:

In HEM go to HUD Options then Additional Hud Filters.

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what he said....


when you get into the filter you should be able to work out how to adjust it...

but if not.. it has like the number of players total at the table 2 through to 10

so what we want to do is filter out the irrelevant information... for instance if we have 1k hands on someone.. the info will be skewed as he may be loose early when there is 10 players and tight later... so his resulting VPIP will be like a middle figure.. same as the other way.. if they play tight early on and loose later.. how will we know.. when we see him next we make think he is a massive fish and make a bad play.. when hes playing tight..


so with that said.. i divide my stats up into early game.. so from 6-10 players i set up my filter as shown.. then bubble play 5-4 players left.. then ITM play.. 3 and under... ive shown the set up.. this way.. the stats you see during the differant phases are more accurate usually its a huge increase.. some players i have over 5k hands on will have a VPIP of like 4 then when it gets to 5 handed it jumps to liek 30.. haha..

dakota-xx said:

I pretty much agree with most of what Dorkus said. One very profitable play I have found later in the game is when I have 5-10bb and 1-2 players limp into me from late position - shoving back into them with a wide range. They fold almost 100% of the time.

1.-You definitely have to play very tight in early stages. Like Dorkus I fold AQ in early position and I am only getting all my chips in with AA, KK, QQ and sometimes AK depending on how the action is going.

2.-Once I have less than 15bb's I am rarely raising and never when less than 12-13bb's.

3.-You need to know some ranges for push/fold - I created a chart using sng wizard if you want it. I can come back from 300 chips to win a sng lol. Last night I got down to 690 on one table - built it back to about 1500 - then went back to 690 again. I won that tournament.

Using a HUD really helps make some of the tough decisions. And take notes -you would be surprised how often you see the same players in micro-stakes.

4.-Read Collin Moshman's "Sit'n Go Strategy.

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Ill take this by numbers. (First of all, TY Dorkus, my main game is SnG, and some great info up there!) But back to U Dakota.....
1. AQ, especially sooted, in LP? Or is it an auto fold 4 u regardless? And do you go auto push/all in on AA-KK-QQ, or do you re-raise all in? I have been playing them in early stage with 3-5 or more BB, depending on position, and more limpers means more BB, but certainly in EP. I was pushing and seemed to get callers with ridiculous hands but 3-5+ BB has been working better for me, 4 whatever reason, still, whats your though on this (and anyone elses?) And I have been inclined to 3 BB QQ, and fold to any pressure, especially when in EP, too timid?

2. Why? Or are you all in/fold here?

3. Is it too forward to ask you for a copy?

4. Yes, turned my SnGs completely around! Great book IMO.

All the above information is really good and I use most all of it during my own SnG play. A few plays that you may benefit from though:

1. Seeing a cheap flop with pocket pairs or suited connectors. In the early/middle stages of the tourney, if there is a cheap situation where you can see the flop for either a BB or min raise, and there are at least 3 ppl in the pot, I would go ahead and call with a pocket pair or suited connector sometimes. It's important that there needs to be a good amount of ppl involved in the pot or else you will likely have a -EV on this play because no one will catch anything. You will usually not hit anything, but when you get your flush, straight, 2 pair or set, you will likely get a big payoff with little risk of a suckout. If you have any of the above hands on the flop, the risk of suckout will be about 10-20%, so I think a double up is worth it, especially for the later middle stages of the SnG.

2. Pushing all-in with suited/unsuited connectors when short stacked. When pushing all in during the middle stages of the SnG when you are 5-10 BB, I would push all-in with any suited/un-suited connector from late position, either the cut-off or dealer position. The reasoning behind this is because you likely have enough chips in front of you to have good fold equity against any medium stack, and if they do happen to call you, you will almost always have 2 live cards that draw well. The most important thing about being heads-up all-in is that you have live cards (you will be roughly a 40% dog, which really isn't all that bad considering your pre-flop fold equity). I personally think the worst card's you can go all-in with when you are short stacked is small broadway cards, like K-J. This is a situation where you are almost always going to be dominated or a big dog. A9+, JJ+, AJ, AQ, AK, KQ, are all cards that are likely to call your all-in, and you will be in big trouble. I don't typically make this play unless I have 5 BB or less, when I don't have much of a choice, and will only do it from button or cutoff.

I have a few more strategies that I can't think of at the moment, but if you want some more just let me know and I will get back to you. Good Luck.

droo09 said:

All the above information is really good and I use most all of it during my own SnG play. A few plays that you may benefit from though:

1. Seeing a cheap flop with pocket pairs or suited connectors(big no no. calling with suited connectors is very spewy, its really really hard to show a profit with hands like this. as we generally dont have the implied odds, furthermore in early stages the chips lost mean more than chips gained... over the long run your better of to just fold.) pocket pairs, sure.. your able to setmine very early levels, once the blinds get 25/50 and over.. it becomes very unprofitable.. and you really really dont want to be limping in at 25/50 level and beyond.. In the early/middle stages of the tourney, if there is a cheap situation where you can see the flop for either a BB or min raise, and there are at least 3 ppl in the pot, I would go ahead and call with a pocket pair or suited connector sometimes. It's important that there needs to be a good amount of ppl involved in the pot or else you will likely have a -EV on this play because no one will catch anything. You will usually not hit anything, but when you get your flush, straight, 2 pair or set, you will likely get a big payoff with little risk of a suckout.i have to disagree again... suited connectors if you flop a flush.. your unlikely to get paid.. a set more likely.. another reason to fold the SC's pre.. If you have any of the above hands on the flop, the risk of suckout will be about 10-20%, so I think a double up is worth it, especially for the later middle stages of the SnG.

2. Pushing all-in with suited/unsuited connectors when short stacked. When pushing all in during the middle stages of the SnG when you are 5-10 BB, I would push all-in with any suited/un-suited connector from late position, either the cut-off or dealer position. The reasoning behind this is because you likely have enough chips in front of you to have good fold equity against any medium stack, and if they do happen to call you, you will almost always have 2 live cards that draw well. The most important thing about being heads-up all-in is that you have live cards (you will be roughly a 40% dog, which really isn't all that bad considering your pre-flop fold equity). I personally think the worst card's you can go all-in with when you are short stacked is small broadway cards, like K-J. This is a situation where you are almost always going to be dominated or a big dog. A9+, JJ+, AJ, AQ, AK, KQ, are all cards that are likely to call your all-in, and you will be in big trouble. I don't typically make this play unless I have 5 BB or less, when I don't have much of a choice, and will only do it from button or cutoff. i didnt bother reading this.. you really need to pay attention to hand ranges when deciding weather or not to shove or fold... so many other factors will affect your decision too.. if you say ok i have a SC im shoving.. ok fine whatever.. you are correct in a way as your unlikely to be dominated, and say 45 S plays better against AA than QQ does.. but your missing the point of shoving.. generally most of our shoves are sb vs bb.. then our range naturally tightens from button and beyond.. so just shoving SC is pretty bad.. as your always going to be behind.. youd be suprised how often K3 is ahead when all in.

I have a few more strategies that I can't think of at the moment, but if you want some more just let me know and I will get back to you. Good Luck.

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,..

fletchdad said:

Ill take this by numbers. (First of all, TY Dorkus, my main game is SnG, and some great info up there!) But back to U Dakota.....
1. AQ, especially sooted, in LP? Or is it an auto fold 4 u regardless? And do you go auto push/all in on AA-KK-QQ, or do you re-raise all in? I have been playing them in early stage with 3-5 or more BB, depending on position, and more limpers means more BB, but certainly in EP. I was pushing and seemed to get callers with ridiculous hands but 3-5+ BB has been working better for me, 4 whatever reason, still, whats your though on this (and anyone elses?) And I have been inclined to 3 BB QQ, and fold to any pressure, especially when in EP, too timid?

2. Why? Or are you all in/fold here?

3. Is it too forward to ask you for a copy?

4. Yes, turned my SnGs completely around! Great book IMO.

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1. I will raise an unopened pot with AQ - espec suited - in mid/late position - it is only in early position that I fold it. I sometimes limp behind other limpers. (This is all in low blinds though!). With AA-KK-QQ I raise or re-raise - I shove when there is a lot of money in the pot already which is usually after a re-raise. QQ I am a bit more cautious with but don't fold it too often. Sometimes I will slow play AA but not often. My standard raise in early blinds is 3xbb (plus a bb for every limper).

2. Once you get less than 15bb's you really don't have enough chips in most situations to be able to c-bet the flop and fold if you have to. So it is all about fold equity.

3. Send me your email address by pm.