Calling in SB

fletchdad

fletchdad

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I am just wondering what the take is on calling/raising in SB. If blinds are still kinda low, say not over 50/100, and the table is still pretty full, what do you all do in the following situation:

hands like Q3, J2, 37, suited or not, this kind of hand. When there are at least 3 callers, I am getting great pot odds to call, and I call a lot here, but it seems to be a -ev, at least for me, as I am throwing my hand away most of the time. The pot odds are so good, if I think BB will not raise, but I have been doing this a lot, and as I am checking my HH, I seem to be donating chips here. So I am gonna start raising or folding here, and cant raise 3 callers with Q3os.

Side note: I push the BB if I have no callers and I feel he is pushable, no matter what I have, is this also bad when blinds are low, as I will fold to a RR?
 
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WiZZiM

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Are you still playing sng's?

in any case, you really don't want to be calling in the SB with hands that play horribly OOP. you have odds, sure, but it doesnt outweigh the disadvantage you have postflop, and really, what kind of flops are you happy about? pretty hard to hit anything. Your much better of completing with hands that play well postflop, 87s, A4s 46s etc. Or hands that at least have potential postflop, q3off etc are just absolute junk...
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Are you still playing sng's?

in any case, you really don't want to be calling in the SB with hands that play horribly OOP. you have odds, sure, but it doesnt outweigh the disadvantage you have postflop, and really, what kind of flops are you happy about? pretty hard to hit anything. Your much better of completing with hands that play well postflop, 87s, A4s 46s etc. Or hands that at least have potential postflop, q3off etc are just absolute junk...


Yes I am.

Thanks for the answer. I have noticed that my calling just on the strength of odds has been -ev, but always good to hear what you have to say anyway. I hit once in a blue moon, but as I mentioned it appears to be a donation more than anything.
 
Worak

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I am just wondering what the take is on calling/raising in SB. If blinds are still kinda low, say not over 50/100, and the table is still pretty full, what do you all do in the following situation:

hands like Q3, J2, 37, suited or not, this kind of hand. When there are at least 3 callers, I am getting great pot odds to call, and I call a lot here, but it seems to be a -ev, at least for me, as I am throwing my hand away most of the time. The pot odds are so good, if I think BB will not raise, but I have been doing this a lot, and as I am checking my HH, I seem to be donating chips here. So I am gonna start raising or folding here, and cant raise 3 callers with Q3os.

Side note: I push the BB if I have no callers and I feel he is pushable, no matter what I have, is this also bad when blinds are low, as I will fold to a RR?

I'm with wizzim here - I don't have my stats at hand now but I'm pretty sure I fold more than 92% of my preflop hands in the SB in the early stages (I'm talking about 2$ micro sngs) and raise 7-8% .

The only times I complete the SB is when I'm pretty sure that the BB will squeeze with ATC and I'm holding a possible 3bet hand -though that happens next to never as I'd prefer raising myself with those hands (AK, 77+).

Question #2:

You'll have to work out how often the BB must fold to your SB push until it shows more profit than the losses when he RR and you fold.

Also take the possibility of him just flatting into account - you might get yourself into tricky situations like TP crappy kicker and have no idea where you're at.

So conclusion: In the SB with marginal hands: fold>raise>complete
 
lektrikguy

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This was one of my biggest leaks. You get pot odds, but limp in. Then he raises you and you fold, or he calls, you miss the flop, and he fires, you fold. -EV in most cases-you're better off gettin it in with another hand in position.
 
greywind50

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Calling when in the SB is in the long run a loser as you have to act first after the flop. However if's it's just the Sb/BB your now headsup and against one hand. you can mis-represent any flop by betting first and the BB has to make a decision. The more opps in a hand the easier it get's to fold. If the table has just limped and you have a speculative hand it's now easier to limp with the others and see a cheap flop with only one opp yet to bet.
 
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cplinbuffalo

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yeah, if you have 3 or more players in the hand already and you hold junk dont waste your chips on it. if its you and the bb playin try a raise and hope the bb is holding junk.
 
BrentD22

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I'm with wizzim here - I don't have my stats at hand now but I'm pretty sure I fold more than 92% of my preflop hands in the SB in the early stages (I'm talking about 2$ micro sngs) and raise 7-8% .

The only times I complete the SB is when I'm pretty sure that the BB will squeeze with ATC and I'm holding a possible 3bet hand -though that happens next to never as I'd prefer raising myself with those hands (AK, 77+).

online this move is obviously more difficult to figure out best line because we can gather no reads from villan in the bb. Live on the other hand I like this move very much when I have a known squeezer to my left that looks like he's about to make a move. Some times they make it way to obvious.

As far as completeing from the sb. Online I would say you should basiclly never be doing it with hands that play poorly oop. In live play however if you have a lot of confidence in your post flop play and the limping villans in the hand are very passive and NOT calling stations that you can go ahead and complete if you feel you can play the hand profitably even when you don't hit the flop hard and obviously you are not going to hit the flop hard very often holding any hand no less a weak hand.

The deepness of the effective stks also has a large impact on your decision as well if you are a good post flop player. Although being a good post flop player you should know playing oop is your 1st mistake. I've gone through periods of completing lite in the sb and folding everything I can't raise with in the sb and to be honest I feel the later is much much better even though I still fall into the well I'm getting 6-1 odds on my sb complete what hand could I possibly fold. I was pointed out as a fish for doing this in one post and I can't argue that it was pretty fishy move. All this being said even when I do make the crying complete I often know that the better decision tree should start with... Can I raise? no = fold. Your expectation via the sb is negative over a life time of poker. The best way to avoid losses via the blinds is to start folding your sb more often. Although I'm not going to pretend I'm perfect with this I'm farrrrrr from it!
 
Poker Orifice

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I am just wondering what the take is on calling/raising in SB. If blinds are still kinda low, say not over 50/100, and the table is still pretty full, what do you all do in the following situation:

hands like Q3, J2, 37, suited or not, this kind of hand. When there are at least 3 callers, I am getting great pot odds to call, and I call a lot here, but it seems to be a -ev, at least for me, as I am throwing my hand away most of the time. The pot odds are so good, if I think BB will not raise, but I have been doing this a lot, and as I am checking my HH, I seem to be donating chips here. So I am gonna start raising or folding here, and cant raise 3 callers with Q3os.

Side note: I push the BB if I have no callers and I feel he is pushable, no matter what I have, is this also bad when blinds are low, as I will fold to a RR?

Instead of looking for reasons as to why you should consider folding while in SB.... consider why should you be getting involved (pot odds isn't a valid enough reason in most cases).
When blinds are low and it's folded to me in SB... I just muck it vs. a 'random' in BB unless I've got a good hand. It can 'depend' though, depending upon the tourney I'm in, I might do things differently ('meta-game')... ie. I was playing a priv. invite tourney/$250freeroll where the players were really weak/passive. I purposefully raised on BB every single hand while in SB... & just continued to do so until they played back at me. This also helps to set up for the situation where I wake up with a monster in SB... raise again & have BB play back at me (helps to get big hands paid off in a big way).. << this situation is player dependant (and table/tourney dependant) and isn't what I'd typically be doing.
 
Poker Orifice

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The hands you've mentioned, ie. J2o Q3, etc. type hands... are the ones I'd absolutely muck even if 4 to 5 limpers in ahead of me. Reason being, these types of hands will play terribly vs. the range of other's typical limping range (esp. those who are limping in EP... which btw is often a decent enough hand in marginally higher buyins)... ie. you flop 1pr. hands with the Q3o.. or J2.. good chance you're up vs. JT, Q9s, etc. I would way rather be calling behind in SB with stuff like 75o, 74s, 86s, etc.
 
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lolrobertlol

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I think fold that cards is ok.
Because you position is not good.
You will hard to deal with two people!
 
BeaverTrump

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To play such hands as you has shown it is not necessary under no circumstances, on any position. One of the main rules of successful game in poker is discipline observance. Playing dead hands - you do yourself by the outsider. Play only strong and perspective hands, and with dead hands only a bluff.
 
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