Calling All-ins mid tournament

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shades1875

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Hi all, compliments on the forum......long time lurker, just dipping my toe in the water now. Some great stuff here!
I've got a problem which bothers me and any help would be mucho appreciated!!
It's these big all-in bets from 1, 2 and 3 players around mid-tourney which are so obviously AA v KK v AQ etc.......
I've got QQ mid pos. I raise I get an all-in on the button and another on the BB....gotta call - problem being is that if I lose i'm out the tourney (just happened!). Cards flip and there's my QQ v AK v AQ so i'm pretty much 55-45? I'm pretty much up against AK because of the common cards right?
My problem is though that do you really always have to call ???? I'm out the tourney if beat and to be honest I hate these situations, it just seems to me like a massive crap shoot.....playing cash I can re-load but not a tourney.
By the way, I'm quite wet behind the ears...only been playing less than a year but any help would be fantastic!
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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you need to post hand histories not just random spots for us to be able to help - it depends too much on the players, stack sizes and positions to set any general rules
 
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shades1875

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Here's the hand history - hope this format is ok:
pokerstars Hand #79907744332: Tournament #552672414, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (60/120) - 2012/05/04 20:23:36 WET [2012/05/04 15:23:36 ET]
Table '552672414 156' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: shadesma (3868 in chips)
Seat 2: justrens (2425 in chips)
Seat 3: JENSGONZO (7755 in chips)
Seat 4: jorge raas (2905 in chips)
Seat 5: Andrei198509 (7795 in chips)
Seat 6: Bebrik Star (3115 in chips)
Seat 7: FCTForever (5455 in chips)
Seat 8: la_pit65 (1961 in chips)
Seat 9: zegaiolas (2965 in chips)
shadesma: posts the ante 15
justrens: posts the ante 15
JENSGONZO: posts the ante 15
jorge raas: posts the ante 15
Andrei198509: posts the ante 15
Bebrik Star: posts the ante 15
FCTForever: posts the ante 15
la_pit65: posts the ante 15
zegaiolas: posts the ante 15
Andrei198509: posts small blind 60
Bebrik Star: posts big blind 120
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shadesma [Qc Qh]
FCTForever: folds
la_pit65: raises 240 to 360
zegaiolas: folds
shadesma: raises 1260 to 1620
justrens: folds
JENSGONZO: folds
jorge raas: folds
Andrei198509: raises 6160 to 7780 and is all-in
Bebrik Star: folds
la_pit65: calls 1586 and is all-in
shadesma: calls 2233 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (3927) returned to Andrei198509
*** FLOP *** [8d Kc 5s]
*** TURN *** [8d Kc 5s] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [8d Kc 5s 7d] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Andrei198509: shows [Ad Kh] (a pair of Kings)
shadesma: shows [Qc Qh] (a pair of Queens)
Andrei198509 collected 3814 from side pot
la_pit65: shows [Qd Ac] (high card Ace)
Andrei198509 collected 6093 from main pot
shadesma finished the tournament in 1201st place
la_pit65 finished the tournament in 1202nd place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9907 Main pot 6093. Side pot 3814. | Rake 0
Board [8d Kc 5s 7d 2c]
Seat 1: shadesma showed [Qc Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 2: justrens folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: JENSGONZO folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jorge raas (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Andrei198509 (small blind) showed [Ad Kh] and won (9907) with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: Bebrik Star (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: FCTForever folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: la_pit65 showed [Qd Ac] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 9: zegaiolas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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only_bridge

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Still a lot of info missing, and hand posted in the wrong way, but looks pretty standard to me.
 
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baudib1

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Don't fold anything after putting in 40% of your stack.
 
Pascal-lf

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you've got a standard problem with most new players - your bet sizing is wayyy too big. i'm guessing you open to 3bb all the time for instance. you should be min opening from fairly early (raise to 2bb) and your 3bet sizing should be 3x at most. there's just no need to make it that big because you are never weak when you make it that big
 
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shades1875

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you've got a standard problem with most new players - your bet sizing is wayyy too big. i'm guessing you open to 3bb all the time for instance. you should be min opening from fairly early (raise to 2bb) and your 3bet sizing should be 3x at most. there's just no need to make it that big because you are never weak when you make it that big
http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1753910
 
Pascal-lf

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3bet to 800-900, no more
 
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shades1875

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you've got a standard problem with most new players - your bet sizing is wayyy too big. i'm guessing you open to 3bb all the time for instance. you should be min opening from fairly early (raise to 2bb) and your 3bet sizing should be 3x at most. there's just no need to make it that big because you are never weak when you make it that big
Thanks a million!
My thinking rasing big there is that I want to play against one player. I'm still in early position and there is a big stack in late to get over who has been playing quite aggressive.
I generally raise bigger in early position to avoid lots of callers, but To be honest I do struggle with my pre-flop raise sizes. I don't get min-raising.....does it not just invite players into the hand - at least when the blinds are still quite small?
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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you can minraise when the blinds go above say 50/100. the reason being the average stack is shorter, so people are less likely to peel. it also means you have to risk less to win more when you steal when antes are in play - people will quickly notice something as obvious as 3xing strong hands and minraising weak hands.

you have no problems if the aggressive big stack 4bets or calls the 3bet. you'll have 3k in your stack with 2k in the middle, so you'll just be looking to get the money in any way you can vs him, knowing you crush his range pre and have decent equity against it even on an ace high board when he can try and bluff at weakness or stack off with 2nd pair.

basically, when you have good hands stop worrying about forcing people out of the pot and start thinking about how you can encourage them to make bigger mistakes - the more you bet, the harder it is for them to make a mistake as you look so strong
 
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David G

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Hand is played fine. Can't ever fold here. Don't like it? Give up tournaments, or poker/no-limit holdem for that matter.

Keep your chin up and welcome to the wonderful game of poker.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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hand is not played fine
 
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David G

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It's fine in this instance. Buy in + stack sizes, nothing changes here. He can make a smaller 3b if you want but it doesnt change anything and if this bet size is "wayyy too big" because "you are never weak when you make it that big" then the guy reshoving with no fold equity is making a huge mistake as he's dominated a lot according to you and 45% at best.

Against this guy's stack he can 3b small, 3b big, or just shove. To be honest I like 3bing big or shoving a lot better than 3bing really small. Again, a small 3b gives villian the thought that a reshove might have fold equity.

You'd be right most the time/as a general statement though. I actually like that he kind of telegraph's his hand here if he doesnt have aces or kings because it gives AK, a hand he doesnt really want to play against, a chance to fold. We would rather take the pot right now than play for an all in.

Now, if you think AK will just call after a smaller 3b then that would be better, but I don't think anyone that decides to play AK just calls a 3b oop here.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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Please tell me why making a small bet and giving the villian the illusion of fold equity is a bad thing?
 
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David G

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Please tell me why making a small bet and giving the villian the illusion of fold equity is a bad thing?
because it gives AK, a hand he doesnt really want to play against, a chance to fold. We would rather take the pot right now than play for an all in.
^^.

Yes, we are 55/45 or so here, but it's greater +ev to take the pot now than race for the remaining chips. In fact, AK with the pot odds is a +ev call for him, that's why we'd rather have him fold at that point.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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so you fold out AK, but you also fold out AK/AJ/JJ/TT which you crush?
 
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David G

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I don't think you fold out JJ and TT.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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what about 99/88/lower pocket pairs? why do you want to look strong when you just give him the chance to fold worse hands? we're always happy to get in QQ here, we want to give him to 4bet shove as wide as possible. him peeling is also fine, given we crush his peeling range even harder and we have position plus a very shallow stack size so he can't get away from top pair etc
 
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David G

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Right, I said you are right in general. All I said was this particular hand wasnt bad/is fine.

I do think some people don't realize the value in survival though. Survival is paramount and trumps over gaining a few chips. ICM is king. There are some grinders that just take any +ev spot, and more power to them if they put in enough volume and can handle the swings, but if it's close, I'd rather take surviving over a few chips in equity. You don't ever lose the hands that you don't showdown.

These are the same people that when they get to 20 BB's think they need to open shove any button/any 2 etc. While that might be a slight +ev play chip wise, I think there's more ev in surviving and finding better spots, than gaining 2BB's. This is especially true at final tables, where ICM has everything to do with everything.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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what ICM considerations are there at 3k? our chips are worth the same as we paid for them
 
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David G

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First off, there's always ICM considerations, regardless what stage. Second, you're trying to prove a general theory, of which I already said you're correct and don't dispute. I'll say it again though, this particular hand, IN HINDSIGHT/with the info we know, is fine.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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why make it so big then? the only reason you seem to have given so far is that if he has specifically AK he'll fold, which is OK because we survive?
 
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