Is this call too loose give my stack size

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EarnDAStack

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So I had originally been fine with this play at the time and only questioned it after reviewing my hands a few days later. Should I be folding this pretty often given how early in the tournament it was and that the action was an open shove from UTG? I ended up being in a lot better situation than I could have been but is this flip so early on a waste of a buy in given I have no fold equity in calling him and I'm either often flipping or crushed


PokerStars - 10/20 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 50.5 BB
BTN: 73.5 BB
Hero (SB): 83 BB
BB: 73.5 BB
UTG: 159.5 BB
UTG+1: 157 BB
MP: 121.5 BB
MP+1: 55 BB
MP+2: 61 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T T

UTG raises to 159.5 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 82.5 BB and is all-in, fold

Flop: (167 BB, 2 players) 9 8 6

Turn: (167 BB, 2 players) A

River: (167 BB, 2 players) 2

[spoil]Hero shows T T (One Pair, Tens)
(Pre 65%, Flop 75%, Turn 7%)
UTG shows T A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 35%, Flop 25%, Turn 93%)
UTG wins 167 BB
[/spoil]

I look forward to hearing you answers!
 
Gaviria8

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Insta fold bro, no way to call that all-in with TT, at least you need QQ but you could also fold QQ depending of the villain, to call clearly you need AA/KK.
 
TheDude6622

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It's tough. He's betting you to fold and trying to scare you off. The call is a tough one but it was the right one. He got luck but what can you do?
 
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Pablo22

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I think it is too early and too many big blinds. But I don't mind gambling in that spot if you know you are a favorite.
 
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tmfnsanders

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Yeah too early and too deep stacked. Unless this was a freeroll or guy was spaz shoving all the time and I was just looking for a hand to take a stand with I'm folding.
 
MatMackenz

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I suspect this villain is a maniac and openshoving quite often regardless of position.

If you have seen him doing these open shoves reguarlly then you can make better assumptions that his range is not extremely loaded in this spot, and you can choose to make a lighter call. Since you are in the blinds and the chance of someone else getting involved is low (Would be better if you are closing the action in the BB) the call is not terrible, assuming ATs is not the bottom of his range.

High varience spot for sure.
 
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Cloxy

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I also would call, but there so many hands that is better of your. Besides, you had intersaption and better chances. But I think it was coin flip.
 
JJP

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It is probably high variance but it's not always terrible bc if he is shoving a10s like this, he could be shoving 99 or worse too. Depending on reads and previous hands, this can go either way imo. I rarely see the 150 bb overshove with aa or kk tho
 
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levidoff

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easy fold. But of course your opponent is a rare fish))
 
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mrverceddy

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I would definitely fold up to even QQ there probably also folding AKo 150bb is a lot
and also when flipping or getting it in your don't have any Edge it's just unprofitable by those numbers: he holds JJ+ AKo+ about 80% of the time i assume putting u in terrible shape and only in 20% of the time he is probably a horrible player shoving low pockets there ( assuming this is a micro stakes mtt ) if this is low or mid stakes the call becomes even more bad
 
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horseshoebhole

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probably stupid

So I had originally been fine with this play at the time and only questioned it after reviewing my hands a few days later. Should I be folding this pretty often given how early in the tournament it was and that the action was an open shove from UTG? I ended up being in a lot better situation than I could have been but is this flip so early on a waste of a buy in given I have no fold equity in calling him and I'm either often flipping or crushed


PokerStars - 10/20 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 50.5 BB
BTN: 73.5 BB
Hero (SB): 83 BB
BB: 73.5 BB
UTG: 159.5 BB
UTG+1: 157 BB
MP: 121.5 BB
MP+1: 55 BB
MP+2: 61 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T T

UTG raises to 159.5 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 82.5 BB and is all-in, fold

Flop: (167 BB, 2 players) 9 8 6

Turn: (167 BB, 2 players) A

River: (167 BB, 2 players) 2

[spoil]Hero shows T T (One Pair, Tens)
(Pre 65%, Flop 75%, Turn 7%)
UTG shows T A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 35%, Flop 25%, Turn 93%)
UTG wins 167 BB
[/spoil]

I look forward to hearing you answers!

Hey friend - Im doing my best to try to understand this explanation of the hand and im pretty sure I got the gist of it. You're the hero... UTG = under the gun, CO = Cutoff. Is the cutoff the person right before the button? So going left of the button is obviously SB BB and then UTG, UTG+1. Then from right of the button is it CO and CO+1?

The other question I had was how can we determine how far into the tournament it is? I know you said it was early in the tourney but am I missing something? Couldnt it be like a 300 person MTT and people have moved tables or whatever? Or is it just that everyone has at least 10+ BB's so you know nobody is barely hanging by a thread?

Sorry for all the questions... dont mean to hijack the thread but now IM looking forward to hearing peoples answers. Really new to forums / poker strategy. I just " played " before.

Travis
BCP - horseshoebhole
 
revizor

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I don’t see any other explanation of your call here, except that this maniac has made such mouve before and opened up quite loose. If you saw it before, then it was right call. If not, then is - fold. And I think that this applies to any stage of the tournament, taking into account your stacks.
 
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EarnDAStack

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Hey friend - Im doing my best to try to understand this explanation of the hand and im pretty sure I got the gist of it. You're the hero... UTG = under the gun, CO = Cutoff. Is the cutoff the person right before the button? So going left of the button is obviously SB BB and then UTG, UTG+1. Then from right of the button is it CO and CO+1?

The other question I had was how can we determine how far into the tournament it is? I know you said it was early in the tourney but am I missing something? Couldnt it be like a 300 person MTT and people have moved tables or whatever? Or is it just that everyone has at least 10+ BB's so you know nobody is barely hanging by a thread?

Sorry for all the questions... dont mean to hijack the thread but now IM looking forward to hearing peoples answers. Really new to forums / poker strategy. I just " played " before.

Travis
BCP - horseshoebhole

Hey man, no problem. I think the easiest was to tell is by looking at the blind level at the top of the hand replayer. In this case it is 10/20 which is the first level for most sit and go tournaments on pokerstars. I think that is the easiest way. But I think you're right, you could also do it based on what the average number of big blinds at the table is. Earlier stages will often be 100BB or 75BB depending on the starting stack. I find most tournaments start with 100BB and most sit and gos start with 75BB.

Hope I was able to help!
 
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EarnDAStack

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I don’t see any other explanation of your call here, except that this maniac has made such mouve before and opened up quite loose. If you saw it before, then it was right call. If not, then is - fold. And I think that this applies to any stage of the tournament, taking into account your stacks.


Villain had made what I thought to have been a lose shove earlier which was what he doubled up on but I think you're right, I think my call here was undisciplined and I should be getting rid of this hand fairly often.
 
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EarnDAStack

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I would definitely fold up to even QQ there probably also folding AKo 150bb is a lot
and also when flipping or getting it in your don't have any Edge it's just unprofitable by those numbers: he holds JJ+ AKo+ about 80% of the time i assume putting u in terrible shape and only in 20% of the time he is probably a horrible player shoving low pockets there ( assuming this is a micro stakes mtt ) if this is low or mid stakes the call becomes even more bad


Yeah I agree. I think it was just so unexpected given how early it was in the tournament as well as his position at the table. I think I made the call hoping I was ahead. Generally undisciplined and I think you're right, I'm going to be crushed here most times.
 
revizor

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Villain had made what I thought to have been a lose shove earlier which was what he doubled up on but I think you're right, I think my call here was undisciplined and I should be getting rid of this hand fairly often.

Actually i think it could be a good call. Even against the range A-T - A-K is nearly 60/40%.
Could be, and was! But not at this time.
 
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mrverceddy

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Actually I think it could be a good call. Even against the range A-T - A-K is nearly 60/40%.
the range probably nearly never hast any at or tx hand in it that we dominate unless it is a "Tilt" shove if villain overplays aq or something ur only flipping given that ur paying a MTT fee of probably about 10% u don't want to flip like this-this early in an mtt because it just makes it - ev in general ( fee/rake higher than your Edge ) that's my thought's so far
for me when I think about whats my edge in an MTT : I come to the conclusion that many ppl just bust way too early in marginal spots and everyone else benefits from it (ICM). I wouldn't call shoves in the early stages of an MTTeven if I knew I was slightly ahead.:(

id rather try to play a lot of suited connectors post flop cheap and get an additional edge till the mtt hits the 30bb stack phase.:D
 
Poker Orifice

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Insta fold bro, no way to call that all-in with TT, at least you need QQ but you could also fold QQ depending of the villain, to call clearly you need AA/KK.


I disagree.... keeping in mind that we are almost always ahead here. I highly doubt villain has AA & KK in his open-shoving range in a spot like this.
 
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Pickat

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I think it was a little loose that early . Take note on the villain and grab him later in the tourny . He probably will continue the same style of play . You had to feel that at best you were in a flip .Although the over bet would've had me suspicious also .
 
SouthparkSith

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I disagree.... keeping in mind that we are almost always ahead here. I highly doubt villain has AA & KK in his open-shoving range in a spot like this.
I agree with the disagree, I don't think it's a instant fold at all. I actually like the call here after reading everything stated after the OP. It's so tricky anymore too though 5 years ago I'd say you're crushed here with tens but the way these clowns shove with shit constantly I'd say most times you're ahead in this spot at least from what I've seen lately?

Even then though it seems like the hand that's behind preflop wins more often than not? I'm about to the point where I don't think there is a correct answer you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Either way I'm guessing you'll get hosed?

I know that's a terrible outlook but it truly seems to be that way. That being said when in doubt fold! "But I'd definitely call in the same spot"
 
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horseshoebhole

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response

Hey man, no problem. I think the easiest was to tell is by looking at the blind level at the top of the hand replayer. In this case it is 10/20 which is the first level for most sit and go tournaments on Pokerstars. I think that is the easiest way. But I think you're right, you could also do it based on what the average number of big blinds at the table is. Earlier stages will often be 100BB or 75BB depending on the starting stack. I find most tournaments start with 100BB and most sit and gos start with 75BB.

Hope I was able to help!


EarnDaStack -

Of course man!! Super helpful. Would you mind weighing in on the Cutoff part as well? Is that the person that is directly to the right of the blind?

And I totally missed the 10/20 somehow or got confused thinking it was a cash game I dont' know haha. But yeah that makes sense that most tournaments you start with no less than like 50 BB and a lot of the stack sizes are around there if i remember correctly ( cant see the original post from this window ).

Best of luck at the tables and very appreciative of the response :)
 
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horseshoebhole

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I agree with the disagree, I don't think it's a instant fold at all. I actually like the call here after reading everything stated after the OP. It's so tricky anymore too though 5 years ago I'd say you're crushed here with tens but the way these clowns shove with shit constantly I'd say most times you're ahead in this spot at least from what I've seen lately?

Even then though it seems like the hand that's behind preflop wins more often than not? I'm about to the point where I don't think there is a correct answer you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Either way I'm guessing you'll get hosed?

I know that's a terrible outlook but it truly seems to be that way. That being said when in doubt fold! "But I'd definitely call in the same spot"

Sith,

The part where you weighed in on " 5 years ago I'd say you're crushed here with tens but the way these clowns shove with shit constantly " really caught my eye.

A friend of mine who has over $1.3M in live tournament winnings and I were having this same conversation but roles reversed. I kind of noted to him that since returning to online poker I feel as if the competition has gotten a lot stiffer... most people actually know how to play now.

What site are you playing where you're experiencing this? I want to play there :D

Travis
BCP - horseshoebhole
 
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EarnDAStack

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EarnDaStack -

Of course man!! Super helpful. Would you mind weighing in on the Cutoff part as well? Is that the person that is directly to the right of the blind?

And I totally missed the 10/20 somehow or got confused thinking it was a cash game I dont' know haha. But yeah that makes sense that most tournaments you start with no less than like 50 BB and a lot of the stack sizes are around there if i remember correctly ( cant see the original post from this window ).

Best of luck at the tables and very appreciative of the response :)



The Cutoff is the position to the right of the dealer button.
 
revizor

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the range probably nearly never hast any at or tx hand in it that we dominate unless it is a "Tilt" shove if villain overplays aq or something ur only flipping given that ur paying a MTT fee of probably about 10% u don't want to flip like this-this early in an mtt because it just makes it - ev in general ( fee/rake higher than your Edge ) that's my thought's so far
for me when I think about whats my edge in an MTT : I come to the conclusion that many ppl just bust way too early in marginal spots and everyone else benefits from it (ICM). I wouldn't call shoves in the early stages of an MTTeven if I knew I was slightly ahead.:(

id rather try to play a lot of suited connectors post flop cheap and get an additional edge till the mtt hits the 30bb stack phase.:D

Do you smoke something? Chipleader pushes on OTG and in his range there can not be hands А-Х!!:eek::D
 
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horseshoebhole

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EarnDa

The Cutoff is the position to the right of the dealer button.


Thank you again. I kind of botched that question - I meant to the right of the button not the blinds, DOH! I was formulating the question around 3:45AM without coffee yet so... I kind of forgive myself. Now that I have the sweet nectar of the morning Gods running through my veins - What sites do you play on? I see that you have only 40 posts or so. I'm really trying to get to 75 posts so that I can apply to become a member of the freeroll club on Black Chip. I believe that Americas Card Room uses the same tournaments as Black Chip? Like they're two different skins or something because the club says that you cant duplicate and play both sites. Kind of interesting.

Thank you again for your help. Im having a blast just getting to know more and more of the game.

-Travis
BCP - horseshoebhole
 
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