silverfox432
Rock Star
Silver Level
I've copied this from another forum. It was posted in a cash game thread, but I think, as an MTT player applies equally well in MTT's.
I wish I could give you an exact # for cbet% to look at, but its just not that cut/dry. There are definitely certain #s though on both ends of the extreme that just can not be good (cbetting >80% of flops for instance) unless youre just amazing at barrelling people, which is going to be pretty hard to do at smaller limits.
Most of the time at smaller stakes we arent making people fold marginal top pair and 2nd pairhands, but rather getting them off their 6 out unpaired hands and bd draws (collecting the dead money) or we are making $ by vbetting with a better hand. Given we dont make strong hands that often, this is why i think cbetting like some people ive seen in the 80-90% range is probably some major spewage unless its a really small sample and youre vs some very specific player types that youre exploiting.
Dont get me wrong. I want you to cbet as close to 100% vs set mining nits. They just arent calling or playing back often enough. But if youre doing your job well and table selecting/starting tables, you should have a decent # of loose passive station fish at your tables that you just wont get to fold hands very often.
first lets define the reasons we bet:
Value
bluff/SemiBluff
Collect Dead $ in pot
I wish i could write a long exhaustive piece on this, but my poker brain works better from examples so instead, ill go through a few very specific spots to illustrate some concepts.
Assume all hands are at a FR 100nl table and 100 eff stacks
.
Were btn and 100bbs eff. Tricky/aggro 22/18 reg in the blinds. We open AQo and he flats from the BB.
Flop 338 andwe have no backdoor draws.
He checks we ?
well....If we bet hes not folding any better hands, he can c/r and put us in a bad spot that were often folding the best hand and calling down with AQ high here is gonna be really hard.
But whether betting or checking is better depends mostly on:
what frequency will he bet turn when we check back as a bluff/or value. Will he follow through on rivers?
What frequency is he c/r bluffing and will he continue/empty the clip every time/or picks his spots pending on how scary the board runs out?
If hes more passive, and will play really straightforward, as counterintuitive as this may sound, I like c-betting more here bc we pick up the whole pot even though most of the time he has 6 outs. and we can vbet turn/rivers when we do improve.
If hes trick aggro, i really dont wanna get blown off my hand here.
Next hand.
Were btn and we and open K5s. An 18/14 straight forward tag in the SB cold calls (hes 3 betting like 3-4% total). bb folds.
Flop is K42r (no backdoor draw)
he checks we ?
well...first off, if we c-bet here how often is a 18/14 calling with worse? He'll probably peel a street with 55-TT (not sure if he 3 bets JJ or not)
Besides that, whats he calling with that were beating? But we cant check back here bc we always c-bet super dry boards when we have air, so we must c-bet for balance no? Fck balance at 100nl. Exploit your opponents till they dont let you.
Our hand cant stand a c/r whatsoever other than unless we think hes c/ring super dry K high flops with such a high frequency that we can bet/call it down, or we know he'll c/r and give up on future streets unless he has KQ+.
Also, if we check back, hes likely going to think 77-TT are worth putting 2 streets of bets in. Also, he may bluff on the turn (a bet we never wouldve gotten given how weak we look checking back on btn vs blinds). If he has KQ he'll lead the turn every time unless its an ace, we get to the river cheaper and can then make a decision
Next Hand
We open Ac Kd and get flatted by a 19/15 in MP, a 30/10 in the CO, a 12/9 in the sb and 19/17 in the BB.
The flop is Kh Ts 9s
Checked to us we? People c-bet here every time. Then they end up getting raised, and convincing themselves they have to stack off bc "the villain could have a flush draw"
Yes we are at the top of our range for opening and flopping a hand, BUT AK on THIS FLOP vs 4 VILLAINS is the BOTTOM of our range for wanting to get stacks in, and probably dont want to w/o some major sick read. Theres no rule against checking here for a little pot control, and praying it gets checked through or c/calling one street. Also, its if we check and it goes bet and a raise behind us, bc most of thee guys are gonna fast play their strong hands on that board in a 5 way pot, we can actually get away super cheaply. And for those of you who like balance, well, how often are we checking this flop with air vs 4 players? A lot amirite? Theeres your balance.
Next Hand
We open KdJc in MP. 4 different player types flat from the bb.
The flop is Qh Jh 4s
and we have no bd FD's
Loose passive 49/7 drooler? cbet for VALUE.
11/9 nit? c-bet to pick up the dead $. hes just folding so much why bother giving a free card to his set outs.
17/13 tag? check back all day. hes not calling worse much, but he can c/r off our hand with draws, he can c/r bluff, and by checking back he may bluff the turn or decide calling with worse has merit now.
24/20 Lag? Check back. I cant believe im gonna say pot control more than once in this post bc i generally think its dumb, but vs tricky, aggro competent players its going to be your friend with marginal made hands.
My main things with c-betting are:
Understand what range you expect villain to call with and how often he calls worse
What frequency are we getting c/red by air and semi bluff c/rd with FD and SD's
What are we doing if we get raised? Can we/should we 3 bet/get $ in? Or i flatting and making a decision better? are we just gonna fold vs it? How about call c/r and call turn bc we dont think he can/will fire 3 barrells as a bluff?
Whats the board texture?
Whats our image? We can actually have more than one image at the same time as weird as that may sound. The nit reg views you as laggy, the tag views you as solid, the lag reg views you as a little too tight and folding too much, and the loose passive fish thinks youre a maniac bc youve raised and bet the flop a bunch. Understanding how this all can happen at the same table is critical.
where did we open from and how does this flop connect with what this specific villain or villains will likely believe our hand to be? (e.g. K82 were running 15/12 and open UTG, theyre putting us on AK, AA, KK)
pay attention to peoples fold to flop cbet%
note How they play flopped sets when oop in a hu pot. do they lead multiways on diff textures or do they tend to c/r? What about c/c, c/r?
***DEF note how they Play a TP type hand from oop when defending the blinds*** AT on T73 did they c/c flop? bet/call? c/r? Noting stuff like this will make your decision as to cbet or not a lot easier.
Basically take more NOTES
Other general rules, when its close, youre in doubt and youre in position in a hu pot, its probably better to c-bet. When its close, youre in doubt and oop its probably better to not c-bet. DUCY?
I wish I could give you an exact # for cbet% to look at, but its just not that cut/dry. There are definitely certain #s though on both ends of the extreme that just can not be good (cbetting >80% of flops for instance) unless youre just amazing at barrelling people, which is going to be pretty hard to do at smaller limits.
Most of the time at smaller stakes we arent making people fold marginal top pair and 2nd pairhands, but rather getting them off their 6 out unpaired hands and bd draws (collecting the dead money) or we are making $ by vbetting with a better hand. Given we dont make strong hands that often, this is why i think cbetting like some people ive seen in the 80-90% range is probably some major spewage unless its a really small sample and youre vs some very specific player types that youre exploiting.
Dont get me wrong. I want you to cbet as close to 100% vs set mining nits. They just arent calling or playing back often enough. But if youre doing your job well and table selecting/starting tables, you should have a decent # of loose passive station fish at your tables that you just wont get to fold hands very often.
first lets define the reasons we bet:
Value
bluff/SemiBluff
Collect Dead $ in pot
I wish i could write a long exhaustive piece on this, but my poker brain works better from examples so instead, ill go through a few very specific spots to illustrate some concepts.
Assume all hands are at a FR 100nl table and 100 eff stacks
.
Were btn and 100bbs eff. Tricky/aggro 22/18 reg in the blinds. We open AQo and he flats from the BB.
Flop 338 andwe have no backdoor draws.
He checks we ?
well....If we bet hes not folding any better hands, he can c/r and put us in a bad spot that were often folding the best hand and calling down with AQ high here is gonna be really hard.
But whether betting or checking is better depends mostly on:
what frequency will he bet turn when we check back as a bluff/or value. Will he follow through on rivers?
What frequency is he c/r bluffing and will he continue/empty the clip every time/or picks his spots pending on how scary the board runs out?
If hes more passive, and will play really straightforward, as counterintuitive as this may sound, I like c-betting more here bc we pick up the whole pot even though most of the time he has 6 outs. and we can vbet turn/rivers when we do improve.
If hes trick aggro, i really dont wanna get blown off my hand here.
Next hand.
Were btn and we and open K5s. An 18/14 straight forward tag in the SB cold calls (hes 3 betting like 3-4% total). bb folds.
Flop is K42r (no backdoor draw)
he checks we ?
well...first off, if we c-bet here how often is a 18/14 calling with worse? He'll probably peel a street with 55-TT (not sure if he 3 bets JJ or not)
Besides that, whats he calling with that were beating? But we cant check back here bc we always c-bet super dry boards when we have air, so we must c-bet for balance no? Fck balance at 100nl. Exploit your opponents till they dont let you.
Our hand cant stand a c/r whatsoever other than unless we think hes c/ring super dry K high flops with such a high frequency that we can bet/call it down, or we know he'll c/r and give up on future streets unless he has KQ+.
Also, if we check back, hes likely going to think 77-TT are worth putting 2 streets of bets in. Also, he may bluff on the turn (a bet we never wouldve gotten given how weak we look checking back on btn vs blinds). If he has KQ he'll lead the turn every time unless its an ace, we get to the river cheaper and can then make a decision
Next Hand
We open Ac Kd and get flatted by a 19/15 in MP, a 30/10 in the CO, a 12/9 in the sb and 19/17 in the BB.
The flop is Kh Ts 9s
Checked to us we? People c-bet here every time. Then they end up getting raised, and convincing themselves they have to stack off bc "the villain could have a flush draw"
Yes we are at the top of our range for opening and flopping a hand, BUT AK on THIS FLOP vs 4 VILLAINS is the BOTTOM of our range for wanting to get stacks in, and probably dont want to w/o some major sick read. Theres no rule against checking here for a little pot control, and praying it gets checked through or c/calling one street. Also, its if we check and it goes bet and a raise behind us, bc most of thee guys are gonna fast play their strong hands on that board in a 5 way pot, we can actually get away super cheaply. And for those of you who like balance, well, how often are we checking this flop with air vs 4 players? A lot amirite? Theeres your balance.
Next Hand
We open KdJc in MP. 4 different player types flat from the bb.
The flop is Qh Jh 4s
and we have no bd FD's
Loose passive 49/7 drooler? cbet for VALUE.
11/9 nit? c-bet to pick up the dead $. hes just folding so much why bother giving a free card to his set outs.
17/13 tag? check back all day. hes not calling worse much, but he can c/r off our hand with draws, he can c/r bluff, and by checking back he may bluff the turn or decide calling with worse has merit now.
24/20 Lag? Check back. I cant believe im gonna say pot control more than once in this post bc i generally think its dumb, but vs tricky, aggro competent players its going to be your friend with marginal made hands.
My main things with c-betting are:
Understand what range you expect villain to call with and how often he calls worse
What frequency are we getting c/red by air and semi bluff c/rd with FD and SD's
What are we doing if we get raised? Can we/should we 3 bet/get $ in? Or i flatting and making a decision better? are we just gonna fold vs it? How about call c/r and call turn bc we dont think he can/will fire 3 barrells as a bluff?
Whats the board texture?
Whats our image? We can actually have more than one image at the same time as weird as that may sound. The nit reg views you as laggy, the tag views you as solid, the lag reg views you as a little too tight and folding too much, and the loose passive fish thinks youre a maniac bc youve raised and bet the flop a bunch. Understanding how this all can happen at the same table is critical.
where did we open from and how does this flop connect with what this specific villain or villains will likely believe our hand to be? (e.g. K82 were running 15/12 and open UTG, theyre putting us on AK, AA, KK)
pay attention to peoples fold to flop cbet%
note How they play flopped sets when oop in a hu pot. do they lead multiways on diff textures or do they tend to c/r? What about c/c, c/r?
***DEF note how they Play a TP type hand from oop when defending the blinds*** AT on T73 did they c/c flop? bet/call? c/r? Noting stuff like this will make your decision as to cbet or not a lot easier.
Basically take more NOTES
Other general rules, when its close, youre in doubt and youre in position in a hu pot, its probably better to c-bet. When its close, youre in doubt and oop its probably better to not c-bet. DUCY?
