BvB Late stages

TiltyMcSteamy · Sep 16, 2014

I'm a new member here at cardschat and wanted to make this my first thread because I find this spot comes up often in late stages. Hero is in the BB and it folds around to SB and he shoves in. Now this is a spot where I'm usually snapping any Ace, K10+, K8s +, 55+ but these are all the easy calls. What I want to dig deeper into is how much further we adjust these ranges according to opponent and his stack and also our own chip stack. I'm pretty sure some suited broadways are snap calls as well like QJs but it gets real close when u go to like J10s or even 10 9 s. I have equity calculators and shove charts but what I don't have is a calling chart vs shoves. If any1 knows of one or wants to study this topic with me I'd love to indulge. Look forward to hearing you guys thoughts Thanks!

revskip · Sep 16, 2014

This might help, it is a push/fold range for both pushing and calling all-ins heads up which blind on blind qualifies.

http://www.holdemresources.net/h/poker-theory/hune.html

I tend to actually play a little tighter than this chart suggests on the BB because I'd rather be the aggressor in a push situation but the chart does give a decent baseline to start from.

Also need to adjust your calling/folding depending on your opponent. In fact that is the biggest factor I would be looking at. If your opponent has played a TAG style I would give him credit for a much tighter range than if he is playing LAG. Two of the stats I use on my tournament HUD are Fold BB to SB% and Attempt to Steal from SB%. Both will give you a much better idea of which opponents like to raise light from the SB and which opponents can be raised light from the SB.

TiltyMcSteamy · Sep 17, 2014

Thanks revskip. I have this chart bookmarked also, I guess between this and simply plugging in the range I think the opponent has into the equity calc and seeing whats a call and what isn't are my best options at this point. So what do you think is the absolute tightest range some1 would be shoving folded to in sb with say 10-15 bb

Jacki Burkhart · Sep 20, 2014

Well I think everyone knows we need a stronger hand to call a ship than to ship due to the gap concept. This rule applies even if I know they are shipping light.

So basically you need to have an idea of their range and your calling range needs to beat the bottom of their pushing range by a comfortable margin. For me, because I like to have fold equity on my side I'm a little conservative with calling shoves and I like my hand to be at least as good as the middle of their shoving range.

BvB I don't necessarily snap call with any ace. For instance if you think they are literally shipping any 2 cards (100% range) then A2 is only 53%. Vs that range with no fold equity. If you think he is shipping 50% of hands (still a huge range) you only have 46% equity. Hence, shipping wide and calling light is often a winning strategy.

WiZZiM · Sep 21, 2014

Easiest way to think about these spots late in MTT games and SNG games.

mtt- ask yourself if he jams stuff that your hand dominates, so if you have JT, does he jam J6 or T9, if so then call depending on your amount of BB's and game situation.

SNG- same as above, however you need to give yourself a little buffer due to the ICM tax, game situation matters here a lot more usually than MTTs. Depending on the bubble dynamics, we need around 5% more equity to be able to call. So if he jams Jx and tx then we can call.

What ever you do don't use NASH as the person above has advised, you can use it sure, however it's certainly not optimal most of the time. Since we're not techinally playing HU, ranges are not as loose as the Nash equilibrium will suggest, so most of the time you are calling down too wide, the shoving side of it is rarely wrong however but lean towards shoving tighter in SNG and looser than it suggests in MTT.

Programs like SNG wizard or ICMizer can help with these type of hands, make sure you set it to Cev for MTT and $ev for SNG. The other program you can use that is helpful is equilab or pokerstove. Both will help you understand all in equity vs certain ranges.

TiltyMcSteamy · Sep 23, 2014

Thanks guys for all the feedback, I really appreciate it. I currently use equilab, and slice ev along with Holdem manager 2 which shows the equity i need in each situation. From what I gather and also feel is that the most important factor here is opponent and his range combined with how much of our stack it cost us. I like to avoid marginally ahead spots when it cost me my stack or close to it like the A2 situation missjacki referred to also. I would much rather call with QJ suited as i feel it plays so much better post. If its anything someone can think to add here please do and thanks again for all the feedback!

RamdeeBen · Sep 23, 2014

A chart isn't going to help in most cases. It really comes down to the player in question and their stack size. There's no point in using a calling chart because people shove much wider than others and some shove much tighter so if you was to just base it on all bvb spots, it's going to be bad.

Just learn to assign ranges on the players in the blinds and adjust accordingly. There is going to be so many times hands are snap calls and snap folds vs different people in the same spots and same stack sizes.

Mordecoke · Sep 24, 2014

I always see players making this mistake in late stages of an MTT.
Don't lose your money in a BVB situation, even if you know you can have the best hand with ace rags or K10
It is better to just wait for a better situation and not be the one at risk in a BVB situation.
If you guys are practically even stacked, then that's even more of a reason to fold.
You don't want to get sucked out on close to the money bubble.

TiltyMcSteamy · Sep 26, 2014

So last night the spot came up with about 60 left in 6k prizepool NLH tournament. Blinds were at 1250-2500 i had 13 bb pos BB and it folds around to SB who is a winning reg at the tables and they auto pile 31 bb in my face. So I'm sitting with K10 suited and make the call they flip over Q6 offsuit flop the 6 and I bust out. So I'm happy with the call the results dont matter because we cant control what cards come out, only making a good call. But this is the reason I feel like against aggressive regs I just cant fold the Ax hands and Kx suited Kx hands. These regs are jamming so light in this spot banking on players folding, I do it myself in sb late stages. So lets take my original post question and assume that the sb is always a winning aggro reg. What is the range we have to be calling and what becomes to marginal and we just wait for better spot? Thanks for all the feedback so far look forward to hearing more of your thoughts , GL at the tables!

Jacki Burkhart · Sep 28, 2014

TiltyMcSteamy said:
So last night the spot came up with about 60 left in 6k prizepool NLH tournament. Blinds were at 1250-2500 i had 13 bb pos BB and it folds around to SB who is a winning reg at the tables and they auto pile 31 bb in my face. So I'm sitting with K10 suited and make the call they flip over Q6 offsuit flop the 6 and I bust out. So I'm happy with the call the results dont matter because we cant control what cards come out, only making a good call. But this is the reason I feel like against aggressive regs I just cant fold the Ax hands and Kx suited Kx hands. These regs are jamming so light in this spot banking on players folding, I do it myself in sb late stages. So lets take my original post question and assume that the sb is always a winning aggro reg. What is the range we have to be calling and what becomes to marginal and we just wait for better spot? Thanks for all the feedback so far look forward to hearing more of your thoughts , GL at the tables!

are we close enough to the bubble that ICM matters?

WiZZiM · Sep 28, 2014

60 left, usually you want to be thinking ICM at final tables, sometimes final two tables.

seems like an easy call to me tilt... wp

hffjd2000 · Sep 28, 2014

Chart is just a guide.

I think this boils down to noting/observing players, our and his stack and lastly our cards.

Jacki Burkhart · Sep 28, 2014

WiZZiM said:
60 left, usually you want to be thinking ICM at final tables, sometimes final two tables.

seems like an easy call to me tilt... wp

I guess what I mean, (rather than specifically ICM) is that are we close enough to the bubble that surviving matters more than taking a slightly +EV spot? I mean, even if we think the SB is shoving a huge range like 22+, any A, any K, any Q and J8+ and suited connectors.... we have 54 % equity which is pretty darned good but potentially you can let this hand go if your'e close to the money. Even the times you get called and are squarely ahead you'll often lose....which is not to say it is wrong.

But if the money is a ways off then it's a pretty straightforward call.

WiZZiM · Sep 28, 2014

missjacki said:
I guess what I mean, (rather than specifically ICM) is that are we close enough to the bubble that surviving matters more than taking a slightly +EV spot? I mean, even if we think the SB is shoving a huge range like 22+, any A, any K, any Q and J8+ and suited connectors.... we have 54 % equity which is pretty darned good but potentially you can let this hand go if your'e close to the money. Even the times you get called and are squarely ahead you'll often lose....which is not to say it is wrong.

But if the money is a ways off then it's a pretty straightforward call.

ya agreed, you can do things like that, but that's a personal choice to let go a knowingly +EV spot. It depends on your goals for the tournament, if surviving the bubble is the goal, then it might be a time to make that fold, if you are only going for top 3 spots, then it seems like an easy call pretty much no matter what the bubble situation. For me personally, it's always the latter, but if i had some bizarre circumstance where cashing ITM was a big life changing event for me, then i'd obviously consider it, overall it would have to be a huge amount to make me think twice about considering it. However everyone's personal situation is different, so it's a personal judgement call, the key is to not let it become something that affects you playing well, like passing up on too many +EV spots because of the same reasons above. (you gotta takes risks to get the top spots)

TiltyMcSteamy · Oct 8, 2014

Sorry guys I forgot to mention I was in the cash in what was a large field and around 200 paid if I remember correctly. Also I'm always playing for top 3 so I like to make my calls based on this. So since then I had this spot come up again in a far more interesting spot, so here were the dynamics. 20k prize pool , final table 5 left. Payouts 1- $3.5k 2- $2.4k 3- $1.4k 4- $1k 5- $750. So I'm sitting in 4th place with 13 bb and I look down at K9 diamonds. Action folds around to sb who shoves in on me sitting in 5th with 7 bb. My read on the opponent was that he was quite tight and nitty as he had previously given me a walk from this spot 2-3 times at this final table which is pretty unusual these days. So as I've stated b4 this is usually a call for me but here given my read and the impact it would have on my stack if I lose I found myself in a tough spot. I guess on the flip side if I call and win its a $250 pay jump and I have a stack to open up a bit. So I end up tanking to the point of almost timing out and make the fold. I shove in QJ a couple hands later and lose a flip vs 55 to bust out 5th. I cant help but feeling like I missed a spot and shoulda made the call even though he was tight. I'd like to thank you guys again for all the great feedback and hope I get more here. As always GL on the felt my friends!

Jacki Burkhart · Oct 8, 2014

TiltyMcSteamy said:
Sorry guys I forgot to mention I was in the cash in what was a large field and around 200 paid if I remember correctly. Also I'm always playing for top 3 so I like to make my calls based on this. So since then I had this spot come up again in a far more interesting spot, so here were the dynamics. 20k prize pool , final table 5 left. Payouts 1- $3.5k 2- $2.4k 3- $1.4k 4- $1k 5- $750. So I'm sitting in 4th place with 13 bb and I look down at K9 diamonds. Action folds around to sb who shoves in on me sitting in 5th with 7 bb. My read on the opponent was that he was quite tight and nitty as he had previously given me a walk from this spot 2-3 times at this final table which is pretty unusual these days. So as I've stated b4 this is usually a call for me but here given my read and the impact it would have on my stack if I lose I found myself in a tough spot. I guess on the flip side if I call and win its a $250 pay jump and I have a stack to open up a bit. So I end up tanking to the point of almost timing out and make the fold. I shove in QJ a couple hands later and lose a flip vs 55 to bust out 5th. I cant help but feeling like I missed a spot and shoulda made the call even though he was tight. I'd like to thank you guys again for all the great feedback and hope I get more here. As always GL on the felt my friends!

I think you can fold K9s in that spot because of your read. I think it's a marginal enough spot that either calling or folding are not a big error, though. The fact that he's given you 2-3 walks suggests that he is folding a lot of his trashy hands....meaning he is not likely jamming on you with a WORSE King.

So, if we assign him a range of Any pair, any Ace, K8+, Q8+, J8+, T8+, and 98 (pushing 38.5% of hands) then you have 46.6% equity vs. that range. Given the money in the pot it's probably a break even call. If you think his range is much tighter than that, then it's a good fold.

TiltyMcSteamy · Oct 9, 2014

I needed 42% equity to make the call and I'm thinking he may have been shoving just a bit tighter than that range MissJacki so I'm with you it's most likely really close to break even vs this opponent. Do you play on Carbon at all?

Jacki Burkhart · Oct 9, 2014

TiltyMcSteamy said:
I needed 42% equity to make the call and I'm thinking he may have been shoving just a bit tighter than that range MissJacki so I'm with you it's most likely really close to break even vs this opponent. Do you play on Carbon at all?

I play on carbon a little bit

Mordecoke · Oct 9, 2014

TiltyMcSteamy said:
Sorry guys I forgot to mention I was in the cash in what was a large field and around 200 paid if I remember correctly. Also I'm always playing for top 3 so I like to make my calls based on this. So since then I had this spot come up again in a far more interesting spot, so here were the dynamics. 20k prize pool , final table 5 left. Payouts 1- $3.5k 2- $2.4k 3- $1.4k 4- $1k 5- $750. So I'm sitting in 4th place with 13 bb and I look down at K9 diamonds. Action folds around to sb who shoves in on me sitting in 5th with 7 bb. My read on the opponent was that he was quite tight and nitty as he had previously given me a walk from this spot 2-3 times at this final table which is pretty unusual these days. So as I've stated b4 this is usually a call for me but here given my read and the impact it would have on my stack if I lose I found myself in a tough spot. I guess on the flip side if I call and win its a $250 pay jump and I have a stack to open up a bit. So I end up tanking to the point of almost timing out and make the fold. I shove in QJ a couple hands later and lose a flip vs 55 to bust out 5th. I cant help but feeling like I missed a spot and shoulda made the call even though he was tight. I'd like to thank you guys again for all the great feedback and hope I get more here. As always GL on the felt my friends!

Here is my take on this situation.
Good fold with the k9 tbh.
However shoving with qj can be debated because it really depends if you shoved in early or late position with this hand.
I want to mention that if you're a short stack shoving with k9+ is the optimal choice if it gets folded around to you. Preferably in late position.
However, you don't want to call of with k9 and hope you're right.

Personally I don't like shoving with qj, but that's just my style of play

TiltyMcSteamy · Oct 10, 2014

QJ is a shove 5 handed and short stacked on every chart I've ever seen, and also coming from every winning player I've ever talked to, any1 else disagree? I'd like to hear any arguments for not shoving. Also, while I do appreciate everyone's input I'm really looking for some input from players who are currently grinding and preferabbly ones that have won a bunch playing the game. My name on pocket 5's is xxslixterxx you can check and see I'm not new to the game, I came here hoping to find some advanced, in depth discusions on NLH, and hope I can find that Thank You and GL

Jacki Burkhart · Oct 10, 2014

shoving with QJ short stacked is perfectly fine. The fact that you're 5 handed only makes it even more obvious to shove.

If I have 5BBs with 5 players I'm shoving most of my hands with a facecard. Depends on exactly the stack distribution, prize distribution and who is in the BB but I'll probably shove any pair, any ace, any suited K, K6+, Q7+, J7+, T7+ and suited connectors and even some unsuited connectors like 98o.

WiZZiM · Oct 11, 2014

i'm jamming 60-80% with 5bb's 5 handed.. Depending on other stacks, the 5bb stack is the point where you really need to throw caution out the window and start picking up some chips.

TiltyMcSteamy · Oct 12, 2014

At the time i had 8 bb w/ QJ and the bb was the tight nitty player from the earlier hand which for me makes it a even wider shove knowing he is calling so tight and would be for his life also. Great feedback MissJacki and Wizzim thanks!!!

romych007 · Oct 19, 2014

I believe that it is necessary Topically suited connectors over Jacks dvigaat all the chips only having a pair of kings or aces and scrutinize players

BvB Late stages

TiltyMcSteamy

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revskip

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TiltyMcSteamy

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Jacki Burkhart

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WiZZiM

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RamdeeBen

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