Button with ace rag question

If i were on the button with Ace rag in a 9 man sitngo with a stack of 1400 and blinds are 75/150 is this a shove 100 percent of the time? the blinds would be neither crazy loose or crazy tight and have stacks of 1500.It isn't a double or nothing and there are no short stacks.5 people are in and 3 get paid.Also what if the blinds were 50/100 in the same situation.

Based on the information given I would probably push there in both situations. But that could change in an instant if you gave a better explanation of the hand...

First, I assume that it was folded around to you. Second, I would not shove all in with Ace rag in that position. I would raise 3 times the big blind, to 450. If either the small or big blind push you all in, then you can either call their bet or get away from the hand with 950 left.

If you were to push and one of them has something, you've already committed yourself and you'd be lucky to find yourself in a race.

Alternatively you could fold and wait for a better hand, but it seems like a good spot to try and take down the blinds. I just wouldn't overcommit all my chips. That's a sure way to miss the money more often than not.

Sounds like a very tight game if there's 9 left.

it depends on blind time
it depends on stacks of the blind
it depends on the reads you have on the Blinds

is blinds movin fast (turbo) you would shove I think
in a normal game it goes with reads also you have to consider if the BB is able to fold if he only has around 500 in chips he might reshove with any hand, this also goes for making a raise as suggested.

if both of them have same stack like 1200 - 1600 and they are nits it's a shove, but they might call with A-KQ(J) and pairs above 88 I think.

So you are gambling that they don't hold anything,

It really depends on the reads/stacks of your opponents and how desperate you are in need of chips.

of couse you will only consider taht IF you are the first in the pot

Mikethefish said:

If i were on the button with Ace rag in a 9 man sitngo with a stack of 1400 and blinds are 75/150 is this a shove 100 percent of the time? the blinds would be neither crazy loose or crazy tight and have stacks of 1500.It isn't a double or nothing and there are no short stacks.5 people are in and 3 get paid.Also what if the blinds were 50/100 in the same situation.

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Well, since there are five people left with blinds at 75/150, you have an adjusted M of about 3.5. If the blinds are crazy loose, they might call you with broadway hands that you coinflip with. If they are crazy tight, you are just gambling that they don't hold anything.

Plus, you have to consider which type of A-rag we are talking about here. Because, A8+ beats most A-rag combos PLUS it coinflips some of the small PPs that might call you in this situation, as opposed to those same PPs dominating a hand like A2.

I'd say A7+ I'd shove 100% of the time with the two types of players you listed. Less than A7, I'd wait another day since we are all in the same chip stack so equal pressure is on all of us to make a move.

If the blinds were 50/100, your adjusted M is about 5.1. You definitely don't need to shove A-rag here. You have a little time find some sort of PP or big Ace to get stacks in.

ckingriches said:

First, I assume that it was folded around to you. Second, I would not shove all in with Ace rag in that position. I would raise 3 times the big blind, to 450. If either the small or big blind push you all in, then you can either call their bet or get away from the hand with 950 left.

If you were to push and one of them has something, you've already committed yourself and you'd be lucky to find yourself in a race.

Alternatively you could fold and wait for a better hand, but it seems like a good spot to try and take down the blinds. I just wouldn't overcommit all my chips. That's a sure way to miss the money more often than not.

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I don't know. I think if we shove, it gives us a MUCH better chance to WIN compared to the chance that we do not make the money.

With blinds at 75/150, a 3BB raise will reduce your M from 3.5 to 2.3. An M of 2.3 basically puts us in a position were we HAVE to start catching first in vigor and push with ATC.

With that said, would you rather ship your chips with an A with a chance to inflate your M? Or would you rather timidly raise, fold, have an M of 2.3 and have to jam the pot with ATC?

I'd rather choose the A-rag over ATC anyday of the week, PLUS there is the added bonus that we win and have a shot at taking the tournament down.

I probably should have said this before, but the size of your bet, should you decide to bet in that situation, needs to be the same size regardless of your hole cards. Again I'm assuming you are on the button and no one has bet before you. You can't bet AA different than 88, Arag, or 27 or it won't take long before you might as well be playing your cards face up.

Spunka's comment regarding the blinds' stack sizes is also important. Clearly if the big blind has 650 chips and you bet 450 with Ace rag, not only is he likely to go all in with any decent hand. But you're also pot committed to calling his bet. There you might be lucky to have the better hand going into the flop, but I wouldn't count on it. And if you tried to steal with 2-7 there... well, let's just say he's going to berate you when you're forced to call and end up taking down his AJ. But that's why poker is fun, after all.

I would probably push because it is in your favor, they might put you on a better hand than you have so you can steal the blinds or you could catch someone playing a low pp or something of the sort. the thing is you dont want people limping in to see a hand

ckingriches said:

First, I assume that it was folded around to you. Second, I would not shove all in with Ace rag in that position. I would raise 3 times the big blind, to 450. If either the small or big blind push you all in, then you can either call their bet or get away from the hand with 950 left.

If you were to push and one of them has something, you've already committed yourself and you'd be lucky to find yourself in a race.

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If you only raise to 3X the big blind in this spot you allow your opponent a wider range of hands to call you with. For example, you have A3, SB folds to 3X raise and BB is bigstacked with about 3000 chips, he calls and you see a flop, you hit top pair and shove, he calls with A5 and wins. If you shoved he would have never called you down with less than AJ at the least for half his stack.

The point of shoving all in here is to pick up the blinds, you never want them to call you or raise you. If you raise 3X BB here and you fold on the flop that doesnt leave you in a good spot, with only about 900 left and rising blinds on a shorthanded table you are forced into a shove or fold position and your fold equity (the chances they will fold if you go all in) has been decreased significantly.

Myself with AX i would never shove without A8s, i wouldnt be doing it at 150/75, I would be doing it at 100/200, from the CO BTN I would be pushing with any pocket pair, suited connectors, any two face cards. I wouldnt be shoving like a maniac all the time, because these kinds of hands do not come up all the time from BTN or CO.

If they never call you preflop, you never lose.

why are you guys asking about the blinds stack sizes. i said in my post they both have 1500 there are 5 left in and they are neither crazy loose nor crazy tight so they are somewhere in the middle not calling all in with junk or only playing aces or kings.thanks sanctokid for being able to read properly.

Easy shove in this situation.

You have less than 10BBs/M of ~6 and it's 5-handed meaning blinds are coming along really fast. So, you're going to need to find spots where you can get your money in good when you're likely a huge favorite/you have a bit of an edge. You also have a bit of FE here so, you're going to want to shove with a big enough stack that'll still get folds. Now lets say you fold and blinds come around and you're forced to fold your blinds. Your stack drops down to 1175, if blinds are still the same at this point you're still looking at a <10BB stack/M of ~5, but even worse, you're losing FE with your stack and now your shoving range is going to have to be even wider. Fold your blinds another round (blinds increase!) and you might find yourself having to shove with a range of K10+ with a much smaller stack than before. So, unless you get some nice hands afterwards (most likely you're not) folding here is only putting yourself into far worse situations.

Raising here is a bad idea as well. Why? Well, the most likely answer is if your opponent calls and you miss the flop, you're most likely going to check/fold. Say your raise standard 3x BB and you fold on the flop, now you've left yourself with 950 in chips. Sure you're still in, but you've just put yourself in a much worse situation than before. (See above post). Another thing to note is the blinds stack sizes...they're also short stacks with 10BBs, so they're shoving ranges are most likely pretty wide as well. They can easily come in over the top of your raise and you're likely to fold. If you think you're going to call, then it would've been better to shove in first.

spunka said:

Sounds like a very tight game if there's 9 left.

it depends on blind time
it depends on stacks of the blind
it depends on the reads you have on the Blinds

is blinds movin fast (turbo) you would shove I think
in a normal game it goes with reads also you have to consider if the BB is able to fold if he only has around 500 in chips he might reshove with any hand, this also goes for making a raise as suggested.

if both of them have same stack like 1200 - 1600 and they are nits it's a shove, but they might call with A-KQ(J) and pairs above 88 I think.

So you are gambling that they don't hold anything,

It really depends on the reads/stacks of your opponents and how desperate you are in need of chips.

of couse you will only consider taht IF you are the first in the pot

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OOPS
sry missed that there were 5 players left.

Then it is a Push / Fold game, so pushing is right.

In my book you can't raise here because it will be too difficult to fold, and you will not have enough chips to reraise the raise, so you have to use full pressure on your opponents.

And the correct play from them would be folding unless they have a top 6 hand.

ckingriches said:

First, I assume that it was folded around to you. Second, I would not shove all in with Ace rag in that position. I would raise 3 times the big blind, to 450. If either the small or big blind push you all in, then you can either call their bet or get away from the hand with 950 left.

If you were to push and one of them has something, you've already committed yourself and you'd be lucky to find yourself in a race.

Alternatively you could fold and wait for a better hand, but it seems like a good spot to try and take down the blinds. I just wouldn't overcommit all my chips. That's a sure way to miss the money more often than not.

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I disagree with this, I'd be shoving from the button with Ax when i'm below 10BB because a 3x raise from the button looks like a steal if anything. If you had a genuine hand, wouldn't you be shoving from the button? Of course this is dependant on the ability of your opponent and stakes that you are playing at, but i'd be shoving with a stack of 1400 at 75/150 blinds, especially in a turbo. In a non-turbo, you've got the option to wait for a bigger hand, but short handed A anything is a good hand.

It looks like the majority feel a push is preferable to a raise here. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I usually make the raise there, and I usually collect the pot after the blinds fold.

Yes, occassionally one of them will put me all in. I usually fold then. I'd rather be one double up from 1900 (from the 950 left) than out in 5th. To me the shove/fold approach is a little too panicky. Raising 3 times the big blind should be enough to get the others to fold, unless they're either desperate or have a better hand. We have the option to call if we want, depending on our read.

P.S. to Mikethefish - considering you're a newbie, I wouldn't criticize those who are trying to help. The decision making process is understood better by evaluating alternative situations as well (like other chip stacks for the parties involved).

I didn't mean it sound critical at all cking, I just was giving my opinion on what I would do in this situation.

There's definetly no right or wrong answer to the OP question, and i've raised 3x BB plenty of times. Its all dependant on opponents and is entirely situational.

cha4zz - I didn't take your comments or opinion as being at all critical. My comment was directed at the OP for his posting from last evening.

Please note that I am not criticizing ckingriches posts or how he plays/his views on the hand. This is merely my views and opinion on raising vs shoving in this situation.

The one bad thing about raising and not shoving is you're losing a lot of value on your hand when you have your opponent beat PF.

For example lets say BB is going to call any raise/all in with any pair (shove with 1010+), J10s+, Q10s+, K9s+, QJ+, KJ+, any Ax hand, and mid suited connectors. (Im only doing one blind calling since it makes explanation a lot easier. Decisions will be much more difficult if both blinds call.)

So, it's a pretty wide range of hands. You're only beat by a bigger ace, over pairs, and you're racing against mid pairs. Lets also note that if you're opponent has rags, he's folding regardless if you raise or shove. We're not concerned about that. We're more concerned about when you're opponent has a hand to call with.

Lets say you bet 3x the BB and big blind calls. The flop is A 5 3 and BB is holding KJ. You c-bet and BB folds. Nice, you just won a small pot. But what if you had shoved pre-flop, BB calls with KJ, and you hit the ace. It's in his calling range, but now all the money is in the pot and he doesnt have the chance to fold. He has to hit runner runner to beat you. Not only do you double up here, but you cripple/knock out a player. This makes it much easier to win the SNG with a much bigger stack and 1 less opponents than it is to win the SNG with a slightly bigger stack but still 4 opponents.

Same thing, 3x raise, villain has KJ, and the flop is 2 7 5. What do you do here? Do you want to bet c-bet out and commit yourself with just overcards? Do you check and put yourself into a check/fold situation if BB bets out? This is a tough spot to be in because villain can be holding anything here. By shoving all-in, you avoid the tricky situations when flop misses you.

One of the main problems that I see with just raising when you're short stacked is that it doesn't really improve your chances of winning by much very often.

a) You raise, blinds fold, you pick up pot. Same thing happens if you shove.

b) You raise, BB calls, you c-bet, BB folds, and you've slightly increased your stack.

c) You raise, BB calls, the flop misses you, and you check/fold. You're stack has decreased significantly.

d) You raise, BB shoves, and you fold. Your stack has decreased significantly. If you're thinking about calling a shove, you might as well have been the first in the pot. I don't really see a lot of people raising with A9 hoping their opponents will come over the top so they can call...

e) Best case scenario: You raise, BB calls, you both hit the flop, get it all in, and you win.

So, in these (basic) possible out comes, you're either going to increase your stack slightly...which is better than before, more BBs/higher M, but you're still pretty short-stacked. Once blinds go up again, you're back in a similar situation. Or you're going to lose a significant amount of your stack when you have to fold and if blinds raise, you're in a much more difficult situation. Now your shove range is wider and its easier for bigger stacks to call you. So, in most cases, you're only giving yourself a slight edge to win or putting yourself in a much worse predicament. In HU, majority of the time either you, your opponent, or both of you are going to miss the flop. So, it's a game of playing the player or who is brave enough to take a stab at it first.

Raising and winning a small pot = 1825 stack (75/150) vs 4 opponents.

Raising and losing a small pot = 1050 stack (75/150) vs 4 opponents

So, what is the difference between shoving and stealing blinds vs raising and stealing blinds? Not much (you win the same amount if they fold.) However, when you shove and you're called by weaker hands, you're putting yourself into a better situation to win. By shoving and getting called, you're eliminated your opponents chance to fold if they miss the flop, you eliminated the chance of them bluffing you out of the pot if you miss the flop and you check. And if you win, you've increased your stack significantly and you've knocked out a player.

Shoving and winning a big pot = 2800 stack (75/150) vs 3 opponents.

Of course, the one draw back to shoving and getting called is that if you are called and you lose, you're out of the MTT. However, I think that's ok if your goal is to win the MTT. It's a much greater risk for a much greater reward. Again, it's a lot easier to win with an average-above average stack and 3 opponents than it is to win with a below average/super short stack and 4 opponents. If you're playing the safe raise/fold route, than you're either bettering your chance of lasting a bit longer and maybe making it into the money (or getting lucky) or you're going to find yourself as a super short-stack trying to hold on as long as you can. I guess if you're goal is just to sneak into the money, then this is your better option...

i cant believe so many people would push here, ive folded better hands just waiting for something better, but i guess an all in over a 3x bb raise
guess it still depends on a few factors- but id probally fold- been bubble boy and bad beat tooo many times

Mikethefish said:

why are you guys asking about the blinds stack sizes. i said in my post they both have 1500 there are 5 left in and they are neither crazy loose nor crazy tight so they are somewhere in the middle not calling all in with junk or only playing aces or kings.thanks sanctokid for being able to read properly.

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All the chipstacks counts here even those not in play, as you might need to catch up up, also if the 2 players in front of you have huge stack, this does matter when you will have the blinds next time.

you need to have enough "bullets" to be able to defend yourself, that is also why raising and folding is a no no, if you drop to 800 chips and the two players in front you have 2400, they will shove very light, (or at least is supposed to do so.) on you.

In s'n'g end game you have play when you have a decent hand, and hope for the best, you can't afford to wait for top 3 hands. also you need to use the fold equinity you have have.

ckingriches said:

First, I assume that it was folded around to you. Second, I would not shove all in with Ace rag in that position. I would raise 3 times the big blind, to 450. If either the small or big blind push you all in, then you can either call their bet or get away from the hand with 950 left.

If you were to push and one of them has something, you've already committed yourself and you'd be lucky to find yourself in a race.

Alternatively you could fold and wait for a better hand, but it seems like a good spot to try and take down the blinds. I just wouldn't overcommit all my chips. That's a sure way to miss the money more often than not.

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This is terrible advice imo. Shoving the Ax is +EV. Raise/folding with <10bb is about the worst thing you could consider doing.

ckingriches said:

P.S. to Mikethefish - considering you're a newbie, I wouldn't criticize those who are trying to help. The decision making process is understood better by evaluating alternative situations as well (like other chip stacks for the parties involved).

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OP made the comment they did because stack sizes were included in his post and members commenting didn't see them (he then commented about this in another post).

As far as 'disagreeing' with the shove, I'm guessing you'd disagree with PokerWiz (< yes.. which isn't always correct as there are scnearios it doesn't take into consideration).. Nash ICM calc with pokerstove +EV shoves.
Raise/folding here is theee absolute worst thing one could do.
I suppose the only argument I could consider for 'raising 3bb' in this spot is if villain perceived ('knew') that HERO was a random & not a reg., and was perhaps raising 3bb with a MONSTER instead of just shoving as he'd be doing with the rest of his range that he'd consider playing in this spot (to a reg. this is also just wayyyyy too transparent ... 'BUT' taking it to another level of thinking, if actually a 'reg.' but only single or 2-tabling recreationally & if we knew the blinds were regs., we could act as if we're a random & act as if we're believing/thinking that they are also randoms & therefore raise to 3bb in an effort to rep a monster hand ie. AA KK QQ, in hopes of taking down the blinds via deceptions.... but against a reg. (& if they're perceiving us as a reg.) they we're open-shoving our monsters as well).

In the spot OP has presented here though, for one we don't have extensive player reads & believe they're asking "Is shoving A-X here a profitable shove?" and the answer to that is "Yes... all day long!"

As far as your inclusion of "what if the blinds were shortstacked".. of course it'd depend upon how short they were as in all likelihood they'd be priced in to call.... if say the BB was that short, then we're still shoving with the AX as it's going to be ahead of BB's hand in all likelihood and with the dead money in we're getting better than good odds to get it in vs. their calling range here (which would , could or 'should' be atc, if they're down to 3 or4bb).

spunka said:

All the chipstacks counts here even those not in play, as you might need to catch up up, also if the 2 players in front of you have huge stack, this does matter when you will have the blinds next time.

you need to have enough "bullets" to be able to defend yourself, that is also why raising and folding is a no no, if you drop to 800 chips and the two players in front you have 2400, they will shove very light, (or at least is supposed to do so.) on you.

In s'n'g end game you have play when you have a decent hand, and hope for the best, you can't afford to wait for top 3 hands. also you need to use the fold equinity you have have.

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I've gotta say I disagree with this as well. A stack of 2400 isn't going to necessarily shove onto a stack of 800 without a decent holding because chances are they're going to get looked up imo. Too often I think players misconceive which players it's more profitable to steal from... it's not the super shortstacks (esp if antes in play).

If it was either folded around to me pre flop or maybe one limper I would raise 3x bb with that hand, it is weak but you are in strong position and probably blinds will fold so you may get a call if there is a limper in the pot, possible re raise, then you can decide if you have enough info on the re raiser what you do next. I find most of the time in that situation you will take the pot.

Poker Orifice said:

I've gotta say I disagree with this as well. A stack of 2400 isn't going to necessarily shove onto a stack of 800 without a decent holding because chances are they're going to get looked up imo. Too often I think players misconceive which players it's more profitable to steal from... it's not the super shortstacks (esp if antes in play).

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I agree with you on this, I did state "they will shove very light" which is like a Ax or maybe Kx and PP, not any hand, as they will be carefull to not doubling you up, however IF they have an above avg. hand, I think they should go for you especially the SB as that player wil have money in the pot, Basically the shortest stack is the target other players try to eleminate.

I also agree with you on your other postings.

Strictly using your set up it would depend on your image and how often you've pushed. I'll assume you've played tight and have shown down good hands. Definite AI.

Here's an alternative I'll use . Min raise occasionally. A few hands you could fold (maybe Ax) or plan to trap or get action with your AA, KK or AK type hands.

If I could alter your scenario a bit, it could be that you'd fold Ax vs the tight(er) SBs AI or call vs a LAG BB. If you get to a flop at least you've got position and you can use your judgment.

goldog