Bluff Check-Raising the Flop

VTedd

VTedd

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Super strong move, especially in the mid stages of a tournament at around 40 BBs, especially when you have PFA c-betting the flop 100% of the time. I usually raise it up to around 4 times the original bet, and it works a hell of a lot more times than it should.

How often do you guys bluff check-raise the flop? How big do you make it? When do you make it a priority to NOT make this move, and at what stack size is ideal in your opinion?
 
warturtle7

warturtle7

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Elky talks about these situation on he's book The raisers edge.

"Whenever you decide to check raise in HU play, you must have a definite plan. Sometimes you check raise with the intention of calling an all-in. Other times you’re ready to fold to a shove.

However, it’s safe to say that check-raising for information in HU might be one of the most -EV moves, especially against LAGs, hyper-LAGs, and maniacs, because they come over the top too often for your move to be profitable. Therefore, as always, you need to mix up your check raise range among monsters, hands with good showdown value, and complete air. It’s worth noting that raising for information should generally be avoided in nearly all scenarios, as there are often better options.
When you check raise with air, make sure your move actually makes sense. This won’t always be the case on some boards or in some betting sequences. For example, if the board is A-2-3 and you check raise, your range is polarized to very few possible hands (AA, A2, A3, two pair, small sets, and 54) or complete air. If your opponent is observant and picks up on your move, he could call you down with K-high or come over the top.

To determine your patterns of check-raising, you should account for ranges and frequencies, the flow of the game, your opponent’s profile, and the level of metagame he’s capable of playing. If you check-raise on a bluff, you have to make sure your move is consistent with your pre-flop action and calling range. Going back to the example above, a check raise on a 7-8-9 board is usually much more credible than the same move on the A- 2-3 board, as you might have many more combinations (two pair, upper or lower straight, sets, straight draws, etc.). As a result, it will be much more difficult for your opponent to re-raise you, even with a decent hand.

Check-raises with air should be used with caution, depending on your opponent’s profile and how frequently he takes stabs at the pot."

I personally have used this move but I do not recommend doing more than once or twice at a table because good players will fight back at you once they realize what you are doing.
It also works very well in multi way pots where the board is quite dry
 
VTedd

VTedd

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First of all let me just say thank you for such a solid analysis on the topic. I have read this section in Elky's book and must give a lot of credit to him and the other authors here for really opening up my play and adding some tools to my arsenal other than ABC poker. That being said I agree with almost all of your points 100%.

One thing I would like to point out is that I play on Bovada which means A) Players aren't going to be as quick to pick up on it, and B) a lot of players c-bet here almost 100% of the time, which is easily countered by a check-raise.

The only thing I can recommend adding to your reply is taking stack sizes into consideration. This move is only optimum at certain stack sizes, and definitely a terrible plan when you are sitting below a certain amount of BBs.
 
gattusoleon

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check raise isnt a good strategy when yo play sit& go
 
AtiFCOD

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Super strong move, especially in the mid stages of a tournament at around 40 BBs, especially when you have PFA c-betting the flop 100% of the time. I usually raise it up to around 4 times the original bet, and it works a hell of a lot more times than it should.

How often do you guys bluff check-raise the flop? How big do you make it? When do you make it a priority to NOT make this move, and at what stack size is ideal in your opinion?

Yes it's a good move. I do it sometimes. It's good against c-bet users. The reraise amount depends on the pot for me.

I remember I did it against a hungarian pro and it worked. :)
 
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SwiftHax

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I do that when I call raises from the blinds most of the time and the flop comes 3 of one suit, or one with cards that don't quite fit opener's range.

It's best done IP though. Your opponent won't be too hasty to call that raise OOP and even if he does, you can still take it down on later streets.
 
el_magiciann

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Check / raising the flop is really effective but if you try to do it very often you can be trapped... so you should be carefull mainly with how often you are using this strategy!
 
Poker Orifice

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The only thing I can recommend adding to ELKY's reply is taking stack sizes into consideration. This move is only optimum at certain stack sizes, and definitely a terrible plan when you are sitting below a certain amount of BBs.

Fixed your post.
His response above is a quote from a portion that Elky wrote in the book 'Raiser's Edge'
 
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trent32la

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It all depends on situation and who your up againist...obviously your not gonna CR bluff a nit...as stated above..always have a plan when making this play...most times a check raise semi bluff will work well as even if you get called you still can win the pot if you hit...Overrall if you absolutely know the flop misses your oppositions range the play will work more times than not...however it's always risky so take your chances!
 
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joe777

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Yes it is strong move and it good for the +EV.If you want to add extra value to your set this is perfect moves.But good idea not necessarily produce good result.In poker anything can happen,for example you could ended up losing to a bigger set but maybe at a very low percentages.
 
aa88wildbill

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In multi table tournaments that are open to the public, 500 plus players, maybe seven or eight times if the circumstances present themselves. As far as "priority not to make this move", against tight players who voluntarily put chips into the pot!
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I do that when I call raises from the blinds most of the time and the flop comes 3 of one suit, or one with cards that don't quite fit opener's range.
yes...this is one of the times I like to do it. It actually works quite often. basically if they don't have a set or the A or K of that suit they ALWAYS FOLD.

It's best done IP though. Your opponent won't be too hasty to call that raise OOP and even if he does, you can still take it down on later streets.

well...you can't check raise in position. If you COULD....that would definitely be my new favorite move:)

...obviously your not gonna CR bluff a nit...

there is a certain type of nit I would check raise bluff... most halfway decent players including some nits now understand about Cbets. these are actually the PERFECT candidates to check raise. You want a flop that has likely missed them and/or has possible straights, sets and 2 pairs. say you put them on AK. a flop like 89T is perfect to check raise bluff. some nits will fold hands as strong as QQ here figuring you have to have flopped a set or a straight.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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so...I'm late to the discussion here.

I tend to avoid big bluffs in tourneys. Not to say I NEVER bluff...but I don't like to run BIG bluffs too often (maybe once every 3 major tournaments I'll run ONE big bluff).

Once you check raise...the pot is getting big and you've committed a chunk of your stack.

I prefer, as my main bluff line when OOP to check-call the flop and then lead out on the turn. This usually costs the same or less than the check-raise, and gets me closer to the river in case I do catch a hand with some show down value, it's more likely to be checked down on the river.

However, I am a HUGE fan of the check-raise semi-bluff. Semi-bluffs and me are best-buddies. I polarize my check-raise range to consist of monsters (2 pair or better) and monster draws. I generally only check-raise on textured boards. Either because I have the monster and I am protecting against the texture, or because I have the monster draw and therefore texture must be present.

but....this discussion has my wheels turning. I always need to consider adding new moves to my game. maybe the occasional check-raise bluff on a dry flop vs. a frequent c-bettor is a good move to add to the tool belt.
 
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Jimboskie

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So from what I understand it is very difficult to have a balanced check raising range against strong opponents. I just can never figure out what hands to do it with. The nuts, draws and air? Not sure if it is because a I like a small ball approach or am just scareddd... lol
 
ammje

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I think the most importan thing when making that move is to get to know your opponent very well, because if you do not run the risk of losing chips.
 
Masi2197

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you are right the pocision, the size of the stad and the rivals, it will depend if your kvimkento ds good
 
Andymac37

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Super strong move, especially in the mid stages of a tournament at around 40 BBs, especially when you have PFA c-betting the flop 100% of the time. I usually raise it up to around 4 times the original bet, and it works a hell of a lot more times than it should.

How often do you guys bluff check-raise the flop? How big do you make it? When do you make it a priority to NOT make this move, and at what stack size is ideal in your opinion?
I like this move if the board pairs with 99 or 1010 both cards that could be in my calling range or if 3 of the same suit comes off on the flop this is when it works for me.Another bluff I like is to check the flop lead the turn same if the board pairs or a 3rd diamond or what ever rolls off. Even a flat call the flop if someone leads flop then lead turn if any of these things I said above happens.
 
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