Blinds VS blinds, shoving with 77?

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Raibik13

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Top 6 gets paid and we are in the money.

I have about 3rd biggest stack. The tournament is a minor one so we are not that deep. My stack had about 70K and other were 20,30,40,90 and 200k. i think the blinds were 3k and 6k and was about to be 5k and 10k in 5 min.

All folded around to blinds. The guy have been raising light like JQh or mediocre hands. Anyways, he raises to 3bb, which is standard and i had about 11bb. i shoved with my 77 and he had KQo. he called and Q on the flop.

Should i have waited for better spot? Should i have just flat and fold if overcards are on the board?

My goal was to win not become the 4th or 5th, because the pay doesnt jump until 3rd place. so i think it was a good shove to put him in spot where he could chip me up and overtake him. i wanted to be first and have the $$$ plus it was a coin clip that i couldnt win.

Comments and opinions?
 
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joe777

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You already got a decent hand vs a LAG,dont need to wait for better hand IMO.
 
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Jpetro

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It's an easy shove for me. You are favored and it's very likely that he could be sealing. I say nice shove but bad luck.
 
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thatgreekdude

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If 3x is his standard raise size I say it's pretty standard to get it in there especially if the pay jumps aren't really significant enough to warrant a fold.
 
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Lekoo

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You made the correct move. There is a big chance that he was bluffing and anyway, preflop you were the favourite. Bad luck for you.

Plus, you said that 4 5 and 6th place took about same amount of money, so you were playing for 1st place. When playing for 1st place u shove with 77 from BB against x3raise from SB
 
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revskip

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I agree with the people posting above me. Easy shove there, you are well ahead of a LAG players range and even though he is probably calling you have an M that very much justifies making the push.
 
swerdnase

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I'll echo what everyone else said as well. You were trying to win and this was an excellent spot to put yourself in a position to do so--especially against a LAG.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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easy shove. plus, if he really is raising with garbage then you might have some fold equity.

If you have more chips....maybe 20+ BBs then you can entertain the idea of a stop n go on a safe flop.

as it is, you should definitely be pushing 77 and many many more hands as well.

I'd say given the little info I have you should probably jam 55+, AT+, KQ, and possibly KJs and a couple select mid suited connectors that have decent equity when you get called.
 
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CSINSC

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Top 6 gets paid and we are in the money.

I have about 3rd biggest stack. The tournament is a minor one so we are not that deep. My stack had about 70K and other were 20,30,40,90 and 200k. i think the blinds were 3k and 6k and was about to be 5k and 10k in 5 min.

All folded around to blinds. The guy have been raising light like JQh or mediocre hands. Anyways, he raises to 3bb, which is standard and i had about 11bb. i shoved with my 77 and he had KQo. he called and Q on the flop.

Should i have waited for better spot? Should i have just flat and fold if overcards are on the board?

My goal was to win not become the 4th or 5th, because the pay doesnt jump until 3rd place. so i think it was a good shove to put him in spot where he could chip me up and overtake him. i wanted to be first and have the $$$ plus it was a coin clip that i couldnt win.

Comments and opinions?
It would be nice to know how many chips he had. You said one guy had around 20k so if that was him that is an instant shove on your part. You stated he was raising with hands like qj suited so you had to figure you were ahead, but also likely to be a coin flop vs. any 2 overcards. Granted you have position if U just call his raise & position is extremely important, however U expect that there will be overcards on the flop to your sevens & U have to take into account whether he always c-bets?
 
123andyp123

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I agree totally with what you did here.And i understand your doubts but what can you do.Sure you could have tried to wait for a better hand but you may not have got one before the blinds ate you up.So i say yes do the same thing next time your in that or a like situation.
 
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heavystack

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i think it was the right move to unfortunantly he was very loose and you lost a coin flip
 
Arjonius

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At the table, I'd probably shove. However, this is a situation that may be somewhat deceptive. For 77 to be ahead, his opening range has to be about 25%. If QJ is the bottom of his opening range, you're probably a little behind.
 
TomLeach

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I hope this perpetual echo makes you feel better about your hand... Break it down, youre going to be ahead of everything except a higher pair, (which there are 7, and assuming nobody had a single one of those higher cards there are only 4 ways to make each, so 28 in total, or around 10% of the entire hand spectrum), if he has two overcards, youre around a 55% favourite. Anything else (although i doubt he would call with two cards under 7) and youre a clear favourite, plus dont forget your fold equity.

Good shove :)
 
TomLeach

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At the table, I'd probably shove. However, this is a situation that may be somewhat deceptive. For 77 to be ahead, his opening range has to be about 25%. If QJ is the bottom of his opening range, you're probably a little behind.


If QJs is the bottom of his opening range on BBvsSB, we have a super nit on our hands... xD
 
Everybodylovesdeuces

Everybodylovesdeuces

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I have developed a preference for flatting and shoving any one card over on the flop rather than shoving pre flop provided I have enough chips to have some fold equity on the flop. If they have nothing, then you're not giving up any equity. If they have two overs, then you're denying them all 5 cards. yes sometimes you get sucked out on by a hand that may have folded to the shove pre flop like J9, but sometimes you get call by a hand like A6 when a 6 comes out on the flop.
 
RiverShove

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This is a 100% Shoving Spot :p Flat or Stop And Go is not a good Line!
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I have developed a preference for flatting and shoving any one card over on the flop rather than shoving pre flop provided I have enough chips to have some fold equity on the flop. If they have nothing, then you're not giving up any equity. If they have two overs, then you're denying them all 5 cards. yes sometimes you get sucked out on by a hand that may have folded to the shove pre flop like J9, but sometimes you get call by a hand like A6 when a 6 comes out on the flop.

So, this approach used to be standard for me (maybe I learned it from you?). But lately I've been rethinking it; especially as a result of trying to think about everything in terms of ranges.

By jamming preflop we get called by all/most bigger pairs as well as many "2 broadway". Type of hands such as AT+. If we put him on a raising range of any pair, any ace and any 2 broadway cards (28%). Then we have 55% equity vs his raising range. So we usually get our stack in ahead. What will he call with? He'll probably call with AT+ and pocket pairs 88+. So the times we get called we only have 40% equity...but with fold equity it's still a reasonable move.

Contrast that with flatting and jamming on a safe flop.
If we assign him the same 28% opening range then we've got the same 55% equity when we make the preflop call. On a relatively safe flop of 46T rainbow we've got 60% equity vs his range. So if he checks and we jam, it looks on the surface like we're getting our stack in as a bigger favorite than preflop (60% vs 55%). So it appears like we've improved our situation.

But look what happens when you plug in his calling range. If we assume he'll only call with sets, top pair or an overpair our equity is now a puny 13%!!! If he's a bit looser and calls us with A6 and A4 we've got 26% equity which is better, but far from great. If we think he's really frisky and will check call with AK as well our equity shoots up to 33% but still not great.

So while it seems beneficial to wait for a safe flop before committing your stack, in reality you're making a bet that nearly always folds out worse hands and only gets called by better hands. It seems we would benefit by grabbing some fold equity against hands that could suck out and getting our stack in vs his whole range rather than just the top of his range.

It seems to me like the line you describe would be better suited to bluffs and semi bluffs where you defend with something like KQ and they check the flop and now you jam as a bluff, potentially getting better hands to fold (like A hi and tiny pairs).

I don't know if my thinking is correct on this or not. I welcome feedback.
 
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WiZZiM

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easy way to answer this is "would you have called if the villian had shoved?"

if the answer is yes then it's really easy shove over. If it's maybe, then you really want to start thinking about how much fold equity you have. If you don't think you have any or very little, then refer back to that first question above.
 
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