Big stack play in Heads up/Spins

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sn0112

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Hi everyone,

I've been playing a lot of Spins recently and can comfortably get into the final two places (heads up) on most occasions.

However, I have a leak once I have a dominant stack (1000 chips VS 300 chips, for example).

I am often unsure whether to call an opponent's all-ins :confused: I know that they can't possibly have a good hand every single time but I'm concious that if they double then it's back to square one...

I also limp/fold too much while waiting for a big hand to finish off my opponent.

I have lost a fair few games in this way from a commanding position :mad:

Can anyone provide some links to any specific articles/advice for such situations. It seems a bit of a niche area.

I should caveat this by saying that I don't have the bankroll to 'accept the variance' and call down all-ins. I'm trying to win 50% of my games or greater to stay profitable. This might also be affecting my thinking.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks :)
 
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eetenor

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sn0112 said:
Hi everyone,

I've been playing a lot of Spins recently and can comfortably get into the final two places (heads up) on most occasions.

However, I have a leak once I have a dominant stack (1000 chips VS 300 chips, for example).

I am often unsure whether to call an opponent's all-ins :confused: I know that they can't possibly have a good hand every single time but I'm concious that if they double then it's back to square one...

I also limp/fold too much while waiting for a big hand to finish off my opponent.

I have lost a fair few games in this way from a commanding position :mad:

Can anyone provide some links to any specific articles/advice for such situations. It seems a bit of a niche area.

I should caveat this by saying that I don't have the bankroll to 'accept the variance' and call down all-ins. I'm trying to win 50% of my games or greater to stay profitable. This might also be affecting my thinking.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks :)
Click to expand...


Thank U 4 Posting

This could be very helpfuil

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/ask-collin-moshman-katie-dozier-about-429017/

Also if you have bankroll worries you may not want to be playing spins the edges are slim and the down turns can be long. The rake is also very high.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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sn0112 said:
Hi everyone,

I've been playing a lot of Spins recently and can comfortably get into the final two places (heads up) on most occasions.

However, I have a leak once I have a dominant stack (1000 chips VS 300 chips, for example).

I am often unsure whether to call an opponent's all-ins :confused: I know that they can't possibly have a good hand every single time but I'm concious that if they double then it's back to square one...

I also limp/fold too much while waiting for a big hand to finish off my opponent.

I have lost a fair few games in this way from a commanding position :mad:

Can anyone provide some links to any specific articles/advice for such situations. It seems a bit of a niche area.

I should caveat this by saying that I don't have the bankroll to 'accept the variance' and call down all-ins. I'm trying to win 50% of my games or greater to stay profitable. This might also be affecting my thinking.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks :)
Click to expand...

I would suggest changing your perspective on these situations to one that just focuses on effective stack.

Heads-up, you should play the same whether you have 1200 chips in a spin or your opponent does since there's no separate ICM effects. Move all-in with the same hands at a 300 chip effective stack if you're the 300 chips or the 1200 chips; call all-in with the same hands; and take the same approach post-flop.

As part of this change in perspective, don't think about finishing your opponent off. Just think about it as playing optimally at a given stack depth heads-up. If you have more questions on how to do that in a specific situation, feel free to post either here or me and Katie's AMA as Eetenor kindly links to. Good luck in your games!
 
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fundiver199

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Collin Moshman said:
Heads-up, you should play the same whether you have 1200 chips in a spin or your opponent does since there's no separate ICM effects.
Click to expand...

And just to clarify, ICM basically exist, when you can lean back and increase the value of your stack by watching one player bust another. Heads up there is obviously noone to bust the opponent other than you, so you have to do the hard work yourself :)
 
thehangdude

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I played a $3.50 stt SnG Turbo 6. When we got down to two, villain had a 7647 to 1353 lead. I needed to double up, so I started jamming everything except real trash. Even when he called my BB, I shoved on him either then or on a fair flop. We played 26 hands, of which he won four. In these 26 hands, he never called my all in, and it never got past the flop.

By the time the villain changed his play and shoved Ax on me, I was up by almost 4000 chips. I called him with QQ and won.

Don't be passive. You can fold trash, but call with Ax and good pairs. Even Broadways like KT+ are worth a call when he's shoving almost every hand. Allowing him to double up is not the end of the game. Blinding your chips away is the worst way to die.
 
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sn0112

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eetenor said:
Thank U 4 Posting

This could be very helpfuil

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/ask-collin-moshman-katie-dozier-about-429017/

Also if you have bankroll worries you may not want to be playing spins the edges are slim and the down turns can be long. The rake is also very high.

Hope this helps
:):)
Click to expand...


Thank you. This is really useful.

I actually have read that thread, and studied the related course, but for some reason I simply did not view spins through the same lens as SNGs.

I think it's because of the fast blind structure that can sometimes make them feel a little chaotic.

Your post will help me re-evaluate this.

I agree about the rake and have avoided sites with particularly fast blind structures. I am aiming for a bigger sample size before deciding if these games are 'beatable' (for me) :)
 
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sn0112

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Collin Moshman said:
I would suggest changing your perspective on these situations to one that just focuses on effective stack.

Heads-up, you should play the same whether you have 1200 chips in a spin or your opponent does since there's no separate ICM effects. Move all-in with the same hands at a 300 chip effective stack if you're the 300 chips or the 1200 chips; call all-in with the same hands; and take the same approach post-flop.

As part of this change in perspective, don't think about finishing your opponent off. Just think about it as playing optimally at a given stack depth heads-up. If you have more questions on how to do that in a specific situation, feel free to post either here or me and Katie's AMA as Eetenor kindly links to. Good luck in your games!
Click to expand...

Thank you Colin. Surprised but happy to see you posting on my inconsequential little thread! :D

I'll try to make the adjustment you mention and see how it goes.

I'm going to revisit the course and will probably have more questions!
 
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Igor Popadyk

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nothing can be done about the variance - poker is math and with a 99 percent chance of 100 hands you will lose one
 
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sn0112

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thehangdude said:
I played a $3.50 stt SnG Turbo 6. When we got down to two, villain had a 7647 to 1353 lead. I needed to double up, so I started jamming everything except real trash. Even when he called my BB, I shoved on him either then or on a fair flop. We played 26 hands, of which he won four. In these 26 hands, he never called my all in, and it never got past the flop.

By the time the villain changed his play and shoved Ax on me, I was up by almost 4000 chips. I called him with QQ and won.

Don't be passive. You can fold trash, but call with Ax and good pairs. Even Broadways like KT+ are worth a call when he's shoving almost every hand. Allowing him to double up is not the end of the game. Blinding your chips away is the worst way to die.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I generally don't die a death by a thousand cuts as you describe.

In my case I typically fold to begin with and play quite passively (as described in my original post). Villain doubles once I eventually call and then the stacks are about even. If villain keeps up the aggression my stack dwindles once the blinds are larger.

It's strange because I am generally fairly aggressive, which is how I get a big stack to begin with, but there is a leak when I have to "finish off" my opponent. I'll incorporate the advice from Colin about avoiding this way of thinking and see where it takes me.

In these periods I can remember getting marginal connectors, or kings and queens with weak kickers and being reluctant to shove. I'll go back and study the hands in some of these scenarios.

Thanks for your advice :)

 
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