Big stack early in a MTT

Hi guys,

I play a lot of MTT's at stars (micro-/smallstakes)

How should you handle being big stacked very early in mtt's?

Just so we're all clear, I'll give an example of what I mean:

pokerstars $4.4 tourney about 3000 people in it.

Startchips 3000

I quite often find myself being at about 10.000 chips when the blinds are around 40/60 or 60/80 - but it seems like i wait around too much, and tend to call to many raises with speculative hands, where my pot odds aren't right, but i feel I have the chips "to spare".

Knowing this is absolutely not the right thing to do, I was wondering what the best strategy for this kind of situation is?

Thanks

Well you probably want about 40 to 50 bb to sit on if your gonna play tight but as you get deeper in the tourney a lot of the noobs will get knocked out (you should notice) and then you loosen up using your tight image at the table if yoh sat at it for a long time but if youve just been moved to a new table you can afford to play tight a little bit more but not much more timing and structure is everything in mtt

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When I get to 10-12k early on in mtts I usually wait for the blinds to increase I'll keep taking position for cheap If the pots isolated and targeting leaky players but I avoid over playing hands that are out flopped easily with blinds so small or going multiple ways into the pot, without small pairs, suited broadways, Ace broads etc, suited one gapers for cheap very occasionally if the spots good.

This usually allows me to slowly add to the stack and by the time we get to 200/400 I've got 20k ish

I always play to win aswell If that means 3-betting , 3-bet shoving check raising flops with air (K10s on a mised flop etc ) against fearful players so be it.
It all depends on the bb factors and the range of hand people are raising with

I think the better question is what to do if yoir short stacked early in a mtt

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I feel that the only thing you should do differently is see a few more cheap flops than usual. Otherwise, keep to the strategy that got you those chips!

Playing with a big stack allows you to limp with much more hands. But you have to play carefully otherwise it will vanish quickly.

cotta777 said:

When I get to 10-12k early on in mtts I usually wait for the blinds to increase I'll keep taking position for cheap If the pots isolated and targeting leaky players but I avoid over playing hands that are out flopped easily with blinds so small or going multiple ways into the pot, without small pairs, suited broadways, Ace broads etc, suited one gapers for cheap very occasionally if the spots good.

This usually allows me to slowly add to the stack and by the time we get to 200/400 I've got 20k ish

I always play to win aswell If that means 3-betting , 3-bet shoving check raising flops with air (K10s on a mised flop etc ) against fearful players so be it.
It all depends on the bb factors and the range of hand people are raising with

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You manage to do exactly what I don't; Slowly building the stake further from the 10-12k chips. I find myself stuck at the 10-12k, and very easily run over later on in the tourney when avg is about 18-20k

newbie in training said:

I think the better question is what to do if yoir short stacked early in a mtt

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Click to expand...

That's a complete different question?

kmichaels said:

Playing with a big stack allows you to limp with much more hands. But you have to play carefully otherwise it will vanish quickly.

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Carefully - exactly! I think that's what missing in my strategy - Because peoples raises are only like <1% of my stack i call with crappy hands trying to catch a two pair on the flop, which just aren't going to happen enough compared the amount that I put in. Letting hands go on the flop when I'm big stack is also a little hard for me, think that's my leak

patience is the key

alex5207 said:

Hi guys,

I play a lot of MTT's at stars (micro-/smallstakes)

How should you handle being big stacked very early in mtt's?

Just so we're all clear, I'll give an example of what I mean:

Pokerstars $4.4 tourney about 3000 people in it.

Startchips 3000

I quite often find myself being at about 10.000 chips when the blinds are around 40/60 or 60/80 - but it seems like i wait around too much, and tend to call to many raises with speculative hands, where my pot odds aren't right, but i feel I have the chips "to spare".

Knowing this is absolutely not the right thing to do, I was wondering what the best strategy for this kind of situation is?

Thanks

Click to expand...

patience is the key of poker, time to time you are way over the rest of the table, but it doesn´t mean you are going to feed others with your chips

so just enter with a little wider range than usual but don´t giveaway chips for nothing

As the saying goes: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". Stick to your strategy if it works for you. Keep TAGing weak links and keep your focus on the prize.

alex5207 said:

I quite often find myself being at about 10.000 chips when the blinds are around 40/60 or 60/80 - but it seems like i wait around too much, and tend to call to many raises with speculative hands, where my pot odds aren't right, but i feel I have the chips "to spare".

Click to expand...

Calling with speculative hands is more about implied odds than pot odds. So, you want to look for situations where the probability you'll be paid off if you flop big is high. As a somewhat artificial example, if a super nit opens and you know his range is only AA, it's fine to call with hands like 65s or 22 because you know he's very likely to put more chips in the pot regardless of what flops, plus a lot of turns will look safe for him to bet again.

Also, playing a large stack involves more than calling. Your stack lets you open wider too, so you'll pick up some pots where you would have folded pre- if you has a more modest stack. But at least as important as this is that assuming your opponents notice your wider range, you become more likely to win bigger pots when you have the goods.

Arjonius said:

Calling with speculative hands is more about implied odds than pot odds. So, you want to look for situations where the probability you'll be paid off if you flop big is high. As a somewhat artificial example, if a super nit opens and you know his range is only AA, it's fine to call with hands like 65s or 22 because you know he's very likely to put more chips in the pot regardless of what flops, plus a lot of turns will look safe for him to bet again.

Also, playing a large stack involves more than calling. Your stack lets you open wider too, so you'll pick up some pots where you would have folded pre- if you has a more modest stack. But at least as important as this is that assuming your opponents notice your wider range, you become more likely to win bigger pots when you have the goods.

Click to expand...

I see your point with playing a lot of speculative hands for implied odds, but what are your limits regarding amount of bb's you pay to see a flop with speculative hands?

alex5207 said:

I see your point with playing a lot of speculative hands for implied odds, but what are your limits regarding amount of bb's you pay to see a flop with speculative hands?

Click to expand...

Since I've never examined the underlying math, I can't say how sound it is, but with this caveat, a guideline you'll quite often see for playing speculative hands is the chance to win at least 20x the amount of chips you're putting in.

It's not that simple though. Poker seldom is. For instance, you don't need the same implied odds in all situations. For instance, if you're in position against someone who plays fit or fold on the flop, you can call pre- because you can win a lot of pots without the best hand. He checks when he misses the flop, you bet and he folds. The more you're playing the player, the less your cards matter.

Arjonius said:

Since I've never examined the underlying math, I can't say how sound it is, but with this caveat, a guideline you'll quite often see for playing speculative hands is the chance to win at least 20x the amount of chips you're putting in.

It's not that simple though. Poker seldom is. For instance, you don't need the same implied odds in all situations. For instance, if you're in position against someone who plays fit or fold on the flop, you can call pre- because you can win a lot of pots without the best hand. He checks when he misses the flop, you bet and he folds. The more you're playing the player, the less your cards matter.

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Ah - I get your point, thanks for the advice!

alex5207 said:

Carefully - exactly! I think that's what missing in my strategy - Because peoples raises are only like <1% of my stack i call with crappy hands trying to catch a two pair on the flop, which just aren't going to happen enough compared the amount that I put in.

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poker hands aren't over on the flop, and all weak hands aren't the same. Some flop better than others. This doesn't simply refer to hitting the flop hard like the two pair you mentioned. It also includes flopping draws that let you continue more often / more easily with your hand. So for example, that will happen more often with something like 65s than with say 94o even though the latter is stronger in a mathematical sense.

You can also play more speculative hands when you're likely to have position, which increases your chance of winning pots without the better hand. And it's even better to have position vs. opponents who fold more easily.

Arjonius said:

Calling with speculative hands is more about implied odds than pot odds. So, you want to look for situations where the probability you'll be paid off if you flop big is high. As a somewhat artificial example, if a super nit opens and you know his range is only AA, it's fine to call with hands like 65s or 22 because you know he's very likely to put more chips in the pot regardless of what flops, plus a lot of turns will look safe for him to bet again.

Also, playing a large stack involves more than calling. Your stack lets you open wider too, so you'll pick up some pots where you would have folded pre- if you has a more modest stack. But at least as important as this is that assuming your opponents notice your wider range, you become more likely to win bigger pots when you have the goods.

Click to expand...

+1

Early in tournament with that big stack , you just can play tight image at the table, and hope to get some very good hand, knocking out some small stacks and wait till the blinds grow enough and start stealing some blinds or making continuation bet again worse stack foes stealing on flop, of course yyou should be carefull for any traps or slowplaying big hand opponents. Its good if you can change your image from time to time at the table, then you are so unpredictable and your foes will not calling your bets instead the are having real good hand.

if the spots are right and you are in a good position, i dont see any problem by playing speculative hands in early stages like 67s or small pairs. you have to consider folding after a raise when you are in early or middle positions with these types of hands. try not to get involved in very tough situations, especially with another big stack players because the risk of getting eliminated or losing most of your stack increase a lot.

rock0001 said:

if the spots are right and you are in a good position, i dont see any problem by playing speculative hands in early stages like 67s or small pairs. you have to consider folding after a raise when you are in early or middle positions with these types of hands. try not to get involved in very tough situations, especially with another big stack players because the risk of getting eliminated or losing most of your stack increase a lot.

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I agree. Pressure small stacks pre flop whenever you have stronger speculative hands. If you play more of these hands you're bound to get good return on your chip investment. If the table lacks LAG players you'll be building your stack.

Arjonius said:

Poker hands aren't over on the flop, and all weak hands aren't the same. Some flop better than others. This doesn't simply refer to hitting the flop hard like the two pair you mentioned. It also includes flopping draws that let you continue more often / more easily with your hand. So for example, that will happen more often with something like 65s than with say 94o even though the latter is stronger in a mathematical sense.

You can also play more speculative hands when you're likely to have position, which increases your chance of winning pots without the better hand. And it's even better to have position vs. opponents who fold more easily.

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all of Arjonius advice so far is spot on.

I'm not very great at playing a big stack early...I desperately want to improve on that, but I usually find myself blinding away until I'm roughly average again.

However, what I THINK you should do is call raises IN POSITION with speculative hands vs. players that you think will overvalue their big hands.

also, occasionally open raise in early position with speculative hands (especially low pocket pairs). As a big stack, players are much more likely to flat call you than 3 bet you.

Refer to the above quoted post about hands that flop well vs. speculative hands.

For instance, today I was the Big stack in this SnG for almost the whole tourney.

Frequently I would open with a hand like A7s, but then later fold to a raise from a solid player if I had ATs or AJo...it's about having the momentum, having the position and having the right player at your mercy

as usual, in poker, it is all situational. Even just the hand selection with a certain stack (ex: u opening loads of hands and u pick up a speculative hand from lp which u usually are likely to open but you miss coz of the previous actions. Or you have a tilted player on the bb you you may miss a lag open from the btn coz you kinda know he would act out of the standards, ect).

Back to the deep stack play I would say that the logical adjustment I would make regards loosing up a bit to play more hands so exploit other leaks and assert our edge.

But the most important thing is "to avoid" to change the game style we're confident with (and end up loosing money) just coz we are deeper than usual. (please note that the assumption just done is regardless of the "standards" adjustment and style change we normally "have to do" compared to the game phase, ppl stacks ect ect )

Maybe its me, but when im fortunate enough to double or triple up early, seems like i am best served continuing to play tight b/c if i do not, i tend to lose back all those chips and then i am mad at myself for not just waiting for premium hands. I get bored though too and start to worry that the average is creeping up on me. I cant seem to cash large in a MTT and I play a variety of MTT from $5 buyins to 55. Im looking to hit the big one some day soon, seems like im due. I always get short stacked though after im ITM. should i be playing looser once i get that stack or continuing to cash and hope i can double up later in the tournament is a good enough strategy?

When you are ahead in a tournament, don't think that this means you have to be the one to bully the short stacks and continue to get chips. Because you don't. Until the chip average of the tournament starts to crawl up to the size of your stack, you might just want to sit and let the tourament go on without you. Of course, if you are in position and sense weakness you can try your luck, but you never know what's gonna happen with all the fish in the early levels of an MTT.