Poker Orifice
Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
How do you 'know' what they have?
How deep are the stacks? (compared to blinds).
Did they openshove?
.. can't think of any instances where I'd ever be folding EVER though (but to pose a question it'd be good if you gave more info.).
How deep are the stacks? (compared to blinds).
Did they openshove?
.. can't think of any instances where I'd ever be folding EVER though (but to pose a question it'd be good if you gave more info.).
blikbleek
Rock Star
Silver Level
well i didnt know for sure of course, but this guy was always raising with unpaired premiums, not shoving.
also, he would randomly shove in either position. after a few times i had a feeling he was shoving with any pocket pair he got, which is all too common at my level.
i knew he had a pocket pair, but didnt know the strenght of it. it could have been aces for all i knew. but i had a feeling he had a middle pair, which turned out to be pocket sixes. (i called with A-Qo and hit my queen).
the reason why i asked this to begin with is because i checked the cardplayer calculator and my hand was 45% preflop vs his 55%. im not sure if i liked my percentages, but ive been shoving a lot recently with any pair 77 or better when shortstacked or deepstacked, but my middle pairs have been continously busted by players who call with unpaired premiums.
also ive been losing a lot by calling pocket pairs with these hands, so im starting to think i should just fold these hands.
T
truerehan
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Well it looks like you answered your own question
This reminds me of the end of the tourney and just you and one person left with a 2:1 chip lead.
honestly, 55%-45% is right, so basically its a coin flip, if you want to race and take a chance at winning or losing and giving them the lead its up to you. If he just raised, i would just flat call without shoving and seeing if you nail the flop before you committ, the only danger is you dont know if they will hit trips or a boat.
But sometimes, its frustrating when u just call an all-in of a person with pockets and you having a big "premium hand" and you missing completely. After all, it still is a drawing hand even AK suited. But even the best players at wsop will do it, its really just a personal choice and if you dont mind racing. But if a lot is at stake, you might wanna wait till the % is perfect or you have the nuts before committing.
This reminds me of the end of the tourney and just you and one person left with a 2:1 chip lead.
honestly, 55%-45% is right, so basically its a coin flip, if you want to race and take a chance at winning or losing and giving them the lead its up to you. If he just raised, i would just flat call without shoving and seeing if you nail the flop before you committ, the only danger is you dont know if they will hit trips or a boat.
But sometimes, its frustrating when u just call an all-in of a person with pockets and you having a big "premium hand" and you missing completely. After all, it still is a drawing hand even AK suited. But even the best players at wsop will do it, its really just a personal choice and if you dont mind racing. But if a lot is at stake, you might wanna wait till the % is perfect or you have the nuts before committing.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
That seems like a very exploitable strategy, if you are folding unless you have the nuts heads up you will bleed an awful lot of chips.
I don't understand why a shoving range would have 22+ but not even include AQ,AJ,even A10 or KQ. adding them into his range and accounting for the BB you have already committed I think this is a call all day, easy.
regarding getting called by premium unpaired Shoving and getting called by hands you expect to call shouldn't worry you, what should is when you estimate their range incorrectly, eg a player calls with A7 when you only expected a call from AQ+
R
RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
I think it depends on what the blinds are at this point, then again I can't see me folding A,Q/A,K either even if I "knew" they had an under pair.
Again though you never really "know" if they are holding a pair so assigning a range of hands to them even if they are really tight, playing only low/middle pairs & broadways (which will never happen) means they are flipping at best and you have enough equity to be winning this more times than not so I think it's +EV all day to call.
If you fold, what exactly are you waiting on calling with a shove, you can be calling slightly wider here and it still being profitable I think? (Maybe I'm wrong here)
Flipping I don't think is ideal though if blinds are still quite low, especially if you have an edge on your opponent. If you don't have an edge then calling is fine here I think more times than not.
Again though you never really "know" if they are holding a pair so assigning a range of hands to them even if they are really tight, playing only low/middle pairs & broadways (which will never happen) means they are flipping at best and you have enough equity to be winning this more times than not so I think it's +EV all day to call.
If you fold, what exactly are you waiting on calling with a shove, you can be calling slightly wider here and it still being profitable I think? (Maybe I'm wrong here)
Flipping I don't think is ideal though if blinds are still quite low, especially if you have an edge on your opponent. If you don't have an edge then calling is fine here I think more times than not.
ben_rhyno
Legend
Silver Level
folding them is even worse imo
T
truerehan
Rising Star
Bronze Level
How is flat calling terrible, many times a small pair will get scared of any over card, and if you bet strong hitting or missing, you will get a fold out of them. Like i said tho, poker is unpredictable and you will not know if he trips up, so if he plays back strong, you know to let your hand go. Whereas in your opinion, im assuming you are saying to shove over top, you will definitely lose your chips if they trip up or you miss your AQ or AK or any straight of flush draw and they do not get counterfeitted. I still wouldnt change my answer, i have proven it in my tourneys and have a very high success rate.
R
RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
For one, you want as much value for your two overs if something does hit. You also have fold equity if you 3bet shove. You say "if you bet hard you can then get them to fold" - I assume you mean post flop/turn/river?
Now while that is true, you can also get them to fold preflop if you have the fold equity there like I say OR better still they think you are shoving light and call. Either way, you have good equity.
As for you saying being played back at with a set we can fold our A,K, I assume you mean if we hit our Ace or King, you honestly expect and think it's good to be folding top pair, top kicker "if played back" let alone against a shorter stack in fear of them hitting a set which is unlikely and massive -EV to be folding?
Not saying it's always bad to flat with A,K - against the right person it's good play but we actually don't know blinds or anything at present as this wasn't posted.
I think that at the end of the day that calling all-in with A,K/A,Q vs an underpair is going to be flipping long term and be +EV most times, like this time for example when you have 2-1chip lead and short stack is going to be shoving wider your equity is always going to be more.
T
truerehan
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Well yes, I did mean after flop/turn/river.
I was also under the assumption that the other person would call a shove raise all-in preflop since he said the pockets were a 55% favorite to 45% . So i was assuming he would not fold if you reraise.
About hitting top pair top kicker either the ace or the king pairing up would be tough, but at least you would have the choice, I am not saying I would, especially if equity/pot odds were the right call. But I am saying you have a choice to fold whereas if the money is all in preflop, you automatically double him up if he trips or quads up and you do not make a better hand.
I agree with AK AQ suited or off that you do have +EV and you would be flipping a coin, in my first post I told him if you do not mind racing for the win, then make the call, and if there is too much at stake and you do not want to take a chance or gamble, then wait till the percentages are much higher or wait for your perfect spot post flop/turn/river.
Tammy
Can I help you?
Administrator
Dude, you don't get to make two accounts to bypass the daily posting limit. Banning this one; once you get to 65 posts on your other account you will no longer have posting restrictions.
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
There's too much LOL in this thread.
When you have AQ HU you are not flipping a coin, you are crushing. It is positively ridiculous to think someone always has a pair when they raise/reraise, especially HU with a wide stack disparity. It's beyond stupid to say someone's shoving range is 22-AA and doesn't include AJ.
When you have AQ HU you are not flipping a coin, you are crushing. It is positively ridiculous to think someone always has a pair when they raise/reraise, especially HU with a wide stack disparity. It's beyond stupid to say someone's shoving range is 22-AA and doesn't include AJ.
R
RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah you are crushing with A,Q most of the time, but I think he said say you "know" the other has a pair, do you call it. Sure, I call 9times out of 10 but you are flipping to be honest, not really crushing. It is daft to say "if" or think someone has a pair, I just think he wants to know if's profitable to be calling, which it is
blikbleek
Rock Star
Silver Level
dude really? first of all, my read on this player was on the money. secondly, i made this thread because ive been repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, losing with AK, AQ against pocket pairs.
at my level every donk thinks pocket pairs are simply the nuts, and most of them will go all in every time. and its becoming frustrated because every time a donk goes all in and i have AK or AQ, im FORCED to gamble.
one guy who lost like 10 times in a row to me started to just go all in every time since then. he even had nerve to call me an idiot after i called his 2-2 with AJs and LOST. (i even looked it up and i was preflop favorite LOL). oh and in another all in, he cracked my aces with 10-7o ffs
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
yes, really. putting someone on a range of 22-AA is asinine.
What does this have to do with anything? You mean you wouldn't make this thread if you were repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, winning with AK, AQ against pocket pairs? Your mindset is completely wrong.
What does this have to do anything? If he's going all in every time he should be pretty easy to play against. Who cares if your aces lost?
What does this have to do with anything? You mean you wouldn't make this thread if you were repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, winning with AK, AQ against pocket pairs? Your mindset is completely wrong.
What does this have to do anything? If he's going all in every time he should be pretty easy to play against. Who cares if your aces lost?
R
RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
I believe that's more in your head than anything, sure you lose a flip vs a pocket pair, you just have a tendency to forget the times you suckout and hit one of your outs vs a low pair.
Not sure what to make of your comment
"at my level every donk thinks pocket pairs are simply the nuts, and most of them will go all in every time. and its becoming frustrated because every time a donk goes all in and i have AK or AQ, im FORCED to gamble."
Firstly, you call these people donks for shoving their pair. They actually have a +EV shove here and equity to make money long term doing this. You have to remember, they actually a favourite, be it slight favourite 55%/45% or shorter 52%/47% if you hold A,K/A,Qs. This is also HEADSUPs, a pair is a monster Preflop and he's likely slightly ahead 299 out of 300 times even if only slightly ahead, all +ev.
I think the odds of both picking a pair PF is 300/1 so do the the maths.
Now you also have to remember, standard play, he raises, or you raises, one of you 3bets, the other 4betshoves. If he 4bet shoves and has you on a wideish range already, then he has even MORE equity than the actually equity of midpair/two overs and on top of that has the fold equity so no, I don't think shoving a medium pair is bad play, especially if like you say, he has a 2/1 chip disadvantage to you, this is the ONLY play to be doing with a medium pair assuming blinds have reached a decent level. Flatting with a medium pair short stack,mid stage of a HU SNG is generally bad play, most of the time an over cards hits.
You are never forced to gamble as you put it, it's not just a case of "ok gotta gamble here" you have to know what his range is for one and two realise people's ranges will widen when they are getting shorter (like in this case) you calling is not bad play and like him, based on everything it's both +EV long-term.
Stop trying to look at the smaller picture of saying about saying how you always lose a flip (clearly not, you said at the end you beat a guy 10times in a row
really?) Anyway, point is, it's fine to call the shove a high percentage of the time with A,Q/A,Q as it has a long term +EV which is all that matters.On another note, someone shoving all in every hand is a dream come true in my eyes, fold,fold,fold, sure he's picking up 10/20 in chips, just wait till you have a winning hand ev wise to his range to make a profitable call, even if you get sucked out of he hits some sick straight/flush you at least know it's a +EV call.
Last edited:
blikbleek
Rock Star
Silver Level
I believe that's more in your head than anything, sure you lose a flip vs a pocket pair, you just have a tendency to forget the times you suckout and hit one of your outs vs a low pair.
Not sure what to make of your comment
"at my level every donk thinks pocket pairs are simply the nuts, and most of them will go all in every time. and its becoming frustrated because every time a donk goes all in and i have AK or AQ, im FORCED to gamble."
Firstly, you call these people donks for shoving their pair. They actually have a +EV shove here and equity to make money long term doing this. You have to remember, they actually a favourite, be it slight favourite 55%/45% or shorter 52%/47% if you hold A,K/A,Qs. This is also HEADSUPs, a pair is a monster Preflop and he's likely slightly ahead 299 out of 300 times even if only slightly ahead, all +ev.
I think the odds of both picking a pair PF is 300/1 so do the the maths.
Now you also have to remember, standard play, he raises, or you raises, one of you 3bets, the other 4betshoves. If he 4bet shoves and has you on a wideish range already, then he has even MORE equity than the actually equity of midpair/two overs and on top of that has the fold equity so no, I don't think shoving a medium pair is bad play, especially if like you say, he has a 2/1 chip disadvantage to you, this is the ONLY play to be doing with a medium pair assuming blinds have reached a decent level. Flatting with a medium pair short stack,mid stage of a HU SNG is generally bad play, most of the time an over cards hits.
You are never forced to gamble as you put it, it's not just a case of "ok gotta gamble here" you have to know what his range is for one and two realise people's ranges will widen when they are getting shorter (like in this case) you calling is not bad play and like him, based on everything it's both +EV long-term.
Stop trying to look at the smaller picture of saying about saying how you always lose a flip (clearly not, you said at the end you beat a guy 10times in a row
On another note, someone shoving all in every hand is a dream come true in my eyes, fold,fold,fold, sure he's picking up 10/20 in chips, just wait till you have a winning hand ev wise to his range to make a profitable call, even if you get sucked out of he hits some sick straight/flush you at least know it's a +EV call.
im calling them donks because they are terrible. not to mean that im an amazing player, but trust me, when someone calls me an idiot because he thinks his 2-2 was amazingly favorite vs my AJs, hes a donk.
and i might not have beat that guy exactly 10 times, but i beat him enough times that i can roughly estimate that.
also you guys say that theres no way to know what hes shoving with but lets just assume for the sake of this thread that the shover has pocket pair. (most of the time my read is right)
but ultimately this begs the question. if hes +EV with pocket pair, and im -EV (although minimal) with AK or AQ, then why should i call? wouldnt that be a long term loss rather than win?
of course when im way up in chips its a good call because i can still rebound if i miss. but if a miss is gonna deal a game ending blow, should i just fold the AJ+ if my read on him is pocket pair.(again lets not debate whether he does or doesnt actually have a pocket pair, lets just assume he does)
and by the way yea of course i have hit my overcard vs pocket pair plenty of times, but i think overall since i started playing heads up, its been long term loss. enough loss that im posting this.
but seriously, if someone just straight shoves on you preflop and you hold AK or AQ suited, are you gonna fold that in any situation?
R
RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
For the sake of argument if we KNOW someone has an underpair and we hold A,K/A,Q - we call nearly everytime, based on his range not just being 2-2's+
Your theory is flawed because you can NEVER know 100% if they hold a pair thats the point and the whole thing surrounding EV and hand ranges. I know for the sake of this thread you want to know if we should be calling, but it's just stupid to ever imagine someone's range to be just shoving a pair that's why I'm saying you can't really say "if he has a pair should I call" because of course, you're always slightly -EV long term if you called A,Q/A,K 100% of the time vs a medium pair but this is totally unrealistic and will never happen because like I say, noone's RANGE in heads up is 2-2+.
This is exactly why you should be calling a shove with A,Q/A,K because there range is never that, therefore it's +EV to call over the long term.
In regards to your theory about this player and you "think nearly 100% he has a pair" you should still be calling A,Jsuited because LONG TERM it's +EV regardless of if he's holding a pair. Sure it's a flip again, be it your a very small slight favourite vs his 2'2s,
however (even if he holds this pair ) add to his range, broad way cards, suited connectors, pairs and this a tight range for heads up (Only 22%, people play double the amount of hands usually than that) you still have 55% equity against his 45% equity so, you are in fact making money each time you call of A,J, do you see what I mean?
Lastly, you say you have played enough of the games to know it's losing, firstly how many games/hands is this over? You do realise the swings in HU is the most brutal in any poker? You could be on this downer where A,K (even though +EV longterm) might be losing money still after 1000 tournaments.
And no, I wont fold A,Q headsup or A,K headsup as someone's range will always say I have enough equity for me to call.
9 man table, I can fold both A,Q/A,K as there is a huge difference.
On an end note, try not to be results dependant don't even look at it in regards to A,K/A,Q all in pre flop how many you just lost, just know it's +EV vs anyone heads up LONGTERM to be getting it in.
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
Still makes 0 sense to think your read is correct. If someone is overplaying 22-66, they are going to overplay AJ. It makes more sense to get all-in with AJ than most other pairs.
In the long-term you are going to lose a lot more often with small pairs AIPF than with AK. Don't worry about what is happening "lately."
In the long-term you are going to lose a lot more often with small pairs AIPF than with AK. Don't worry about what is happening "lately."
blikbleek
Rock Star
Silver Level
Hand#27129A2341000007 - $2 Heads-up NL Hold'em T10101569 -- Table 1 -- 0/10/20 NL Hold'em -- 2011/09/08 - 13:51:16
Seat 3: Loya***3 (1,690 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: blikbleek (1,310 in chips)
Loya***3: posts small blind 10
blikbleek: posts big blind 20
Dealt to blikbleek [As,Ks]
Loya***3: raises to 60
blikbleek: raises to 100
Loya***3: is all in 1,630
blikbleek: is all in 1,210
Loya***3: returns uncalled bet 380
Loya***3: shows [8s 8d]
blikbleek: shows [As Ks]
*** FLOP *** [Qd,7h,Th]
*** TURN *** [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [6c]
***SHOW DOWN***
Loya***3 wins 2,620 with Two Pairs Tens and Eights
blikbleek finished 2 out of 2 players.
Seat 3: Loya***3 (1,690 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: blikbleek (1,310 in chips)
Loya***3: posts small blind 10
blikbleek: posts big blind 20
Dealt to blikbleek [As,Ks]
Loya***3: raises to 60
blikbleek: raises to 100
Loya***3: is all in 1,630
blikbleek: is all in 1,210
Loya***3: returns uncalled bet 380
Loya***3: shows [8s 8d]
blikbleek: shows [As Ks]
*** FLOP *** [Qd,7h,Th]
*** TURN *** [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [6c]
***SHOW DOWN***
Loya***3 wins 2,620 with Two Pairs Tens and Eights
blikbleek finished 2 out of 2 players.