Bet Sizing Example/Discussion

S

ssbn743

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This hand is from the $360 MSPT regional event in Black Hawk, Colorado this past weekend. Starting stacks were $20K with 30 minute levels and what turned out to be the largest field in Colorado poker tournament history.

Hero (Seat 10) - $18K
Villain (Seat 8) - $8,700

Level $200/$400/$25
Hero UTG+1 – opened to $1K with :4h4: :5h4:
All folds to the Villain in the BB – he flat called.

Pot - $2,450
Flop – :10c4: :jc4: :qs4:
The BB checked to me, I bet $2,500 and he flat called

Pot - $7,450
Turn - :as4:
The BB checked to me, I bet $4,500 and he flat called

Pot - $16,450
River - :6h4:
The BB checked to me and I checked it back

Details

Now, and as always, the truth is in the details – so let me explain the why behind the above.

#1 (Pre-flop) :4h4: :5h4:
I opened 45h from EP, take fault with that if you’d like, however, my table image was extremely tight (as evident by the whole table folding) and I decided to play, hoping to build a high SPR, low risk high reward scenario. That didn’t happen. The villain was a terrible regular, and I mean terrible, in fact, he may very well be the single worst player I have ever actually seen in live poker.

He had $8,700 in his stack, but had a $1K chip out for his $400 BB – it may very well have been that he would have folded pre-flop if he only had 4 black chips out there, but since he already had $1k in there – he called.

Not the situation I was looking for, obviously, but I still might be able to make something of this situation. His range is literally the entire deck, and I honestly mean all 1326 possible combinations. So, I chose to rely more on my apparent range.

#2 (Flop) :10c4: :jc4: :qs4:

He checked to me and I decided to make a C-bet. I don’t think that’s a bad play, my other option would have been a delayed C-bet, but I thought a C-bet was the right answer. I decided to size it larger against the weak donkey in the BB and bet $2,500. In hindsight, I would take this back and bet smaller, but…

He insta-called.

#3 (Turn) :as4:

Mayday, Mayday, Mayday….

I had every intention of giving up here, however, that wasn’t the worse card I could have seen. He checked to me and as I was sitting there pondering changing my plan and firing a second barrel, he started begging me not to bet.

“Awww come on man – don’t bet”

At first, I thought it was merely a ploy to get me to put more chips in the pot, however, as he kept talking:

“I haven’t had a hand all day – be cool man”

I realized he genuinely did not want me to bet. His stack was hard to gauge as he had it “barber polled”, but I wanted to bet an amount that seemed like a value size but also committed his stack – I settled on $4,500 as I thought he had $7-$8K behind.

He snap called, I mean he threw a pile of chips out, sorted out the $4,500 and it was only then that I realized he left himself with 4BB, or $1,700 chips, I thought he had more than that.

#4 (River) :6h4:

He checked to me yet again. At this point, I waived the white flag and checked behind – he rolled :9c4: :5s4: and won the pot. Oh, and yes, you read that correctly.

Discussion

So, obviously, we’re dealing with a terrible player – but if I had sized my bets better, I think I could have won this pot pretty easily.

For example, on the flop, if I had bet more like $1,100. Then, on the turn bet something more like $2,500 after he started begging me not to bet – I could have shoved the river (if I still believed my read) and earned his fold.

Then again, that may be somewhat results oriented thinking now that I know his hand. However, this sizing dilemma was really all set up by the larger than normal pot C-bet on the flop, the change of plans mid-stream and a barber polled stack didn’t help either.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?
 
Last edited:
George Lewis

George Lewis

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It was just a mess. You get involved with a bad player that has a short stack and clearly is ready to rebuy. The tight image only worked on thinking players meanwhile you got this clown involved and once he flopped a straight draw however ugly he was never folding(maybe the river..bur he sucks so he might just call out of stupidity). I always try to re evaluate decisions as often as possible and after the flop just check and fold if needed and move on. 45 suited is best in position and used as a raise to appear as something it is not. You are then able to flop well or miss and pretend you flopped well and apply pressure using position. Fold it in early position here and especially pay attention to who is in the blinds.
 
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PKRNRS

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This could be the worst hand I've ever seen. Both of you are donkeys. So you got frisky UTG "look at what I can do" raise. And you only raised it 1k which is going to be light. He only has to to call 600, and if at a full table, 3:1 on his money. Not horrible odds to call out of the BB with any two. Your c-bet was heavy after the flop. You want your c-bet to look like you want a call, 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot. Your pot sized bet says you're trying to buy the pot and therefore have nothing. Your next c-bet was actually alright in chip size. His talking would suggest he had a hand. To me at least. Was he drinking or drunk? The snap calls with nothing and then win with 9 high. Wow. I can't fathom such idiotic play. I have donk-ified myself into many the same situations trying to run a stone cold bluff on the table. What I have learned is players don't really pay attention to your endless folds. You have to really stick to ABC poker until it's time to pull out the fake-punt from your playbook. Other people are just not smart enough to realize they are out classed. Or maybe he has a tell on you! Either way the whole situation is avoided by folding. Have better cards next time against this or other donkeys.
Also it's called a "dirty stack" and it should be cleaned up by the dealer asking him to clean it or you can simply ask how much he has before betting. Unfortunately this people will win and all you can do is shake your head. I also get the impression that this idiot isn't going anywhere with any bet from you. What a dim-wit.
 
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Dodgethis2k

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You have a lot of nerve...

This hand is from the $360 MSPT regional event in Black Hawk, Colorado this past weekend. Starting stacks were $20K with 30 minute levels and what turned out to be the largest field in Colorado poker tournament history.

Hero (Seat 10) - $18K
Villain (Seat 8) - $8,700

Level $200/$400/$25
Hero UTG+1 – opened to $1K with :4h4: :5h4:
All folds to the Villain in the BB – he flat called.

Pot - $2,450
Flop – :10c4: :jc4: :qs4:
The BB checked to me, I bet $2,500 and he flat called

Pot - $7,450
Turn - :as4:
The BB checked to me, I bet $4,500 and he flat called

Pot - $16,450
River - :6h4:
The BB checked to me and I checked it back

Details

Now, and as always, the truth is in the details – so let me explain the why behind the above.

#1 (Pre-flop) :4h4: :5h4:
I opened 45h from EP, take fault with that if you’d like, however, my table image was extremely tight (as evident by the whole table folding) and I decided to play, hoping to build a high SPR, low risk high reward scenario. That didn’t happen. The villain was a terrible regular, and I mean terrible, in fact, he may very well be the single worst player I have ever actually seen in live poker.

He had $8,700 in his stack, but had a $1K chip out for his $400 BB – it may very well have been that he would have folded pre-flop if he only had 4 black chips out there, but since he already had $1k in there – he called.

Not the situation I was looking for, obviously, but I still might be able to make something of this situation. His range is literally the entire deck, and I honestly mean all 1326 possible combinations. So, I chose to rely more on my apparent range.

#2 (Flop) :10c4: :jc4: :qs4:

He checked to me and I decided to make a C-bet. I don’t think that’s a bad play, my other option would have been a delayed C-bet, but I thought a C-bet was the right answer. I decided to size it larger against the weak donkey in the BB and bet $2,500. In hindsight, I would take this back and bet smaller, but…

He insta-called.

#3 (Turn) :as4:

Mayday, Mayday, Mayday….

I had every intention of giving up here, however, that wasn’t the worse card I could have seen. He checked to me and as I was sitting there pondering changing my plan and firing a second barrel, he started begging me not to bet.

“Awww come on man – don’t bet”

At first, I thought it was merely a ploy to get me to put more chips in the pot, however, as he kept talking:

“I haven’t had a hand all day – be cool man”

I realized he genuinely did not want me to bet. His stack was hard to gauge as he had it “barber polled”, but I wanted to bet an amount that seemed like a value size but also committed his stack – I settled on $4,500 as I thought he had $7-$8K behind.

He snap called, I mean he threw a pile of chips out, sorted out the $4,500 and it was only then that I realized he left himself with 4BB, or $1,700 chips, I thought he had more than that.

#4 (River) :6h4:

He checked to me yet again. At this point, I waived the white flag and checked behind – he rolled :9c4: :5s4: and won the pot. Oh, and yes, you read that correctly.

Discussion

So, obviously, we’re dealing with a terrible player – but if I had sized my bets better, I think I could have won this pot pretty easily.

For example, on the flop, if I had bet more like $1,100. Then, on the turn bet something more like $2,500 after he started begging me not to bet – I could have shoved the river (if I still believed my read) and earned his fold.

Then again, that may be somewhat results oriented thinking now that I know his hand. However, this sizing dilemma was really all set up by the larger than normal pot C-bet on the flop, the change of plans mid-stream and a barber polled stack didn’t help either.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?

...calling ANYONE else a terrible player. You raised with 45 (suited is only 2% more likely to win than non-suited), then you bet the flop with 3 over cards to your 5 and a flush draw on board that you don't have (!!!), and then you bet the turn with four over cards to your 5 and TWO flush draws you don't have (!!!) plus a 4-straight you don't have (!!!). When two people without a clue play cards, one of them will win. The 95off (which is a better pre-flop and than 45, even suited) won. Get over yourself.
 
TheNutz4You

TheNutz4You

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I agree with the above. terrible play all the way to the river
 
gus201

gus201

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since you chose to play that hand knowing your image why wasnt the turn (A) a harder (more) bet to say you hit and your coming for his chips. tight plus A = a made hand.

Now if he thinks he is short is ready to rebuy then you have to limit the pot when you play after the flop.

Playing that hand with a raise is perfect in my book what are they going to put you on? most of the time you get calls and not reraised unless they think they have a strong hand like AA ,KK QQ AK which makes getting away from the hand very easy.

How many ways did you have to win with that hand and how you played it with your image?
so understanding the type of player in the hand with you should be more cautious after preflop until you hit or you get the card they would most likely put you on.

I hope you understand that. i am wont say much more but you get the just of it .

Oh Yea the betting :) your bets shouldnt be on auto but should be focused on the other player and what they will fold at. you cant have auto make them fold for you if they understand auto and what you are doing.

Shouldnt we playing the opposite and not all the same. doing things they wouldnt think we would do to gather chips. ect........

Have a great day at the tables.
 
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