"Best" losing hands from each position? (6-max tourney question)

ben_rhyno · Jan 18, 2011

With the exception of the blinds and button, what hands are unprofitable to play from different positions on a 9-handed and 6-handed table?

An example of what I mean is:
UTG:
9-max: The best starting hand which is probably unprofitable to open would be maybe AQ/AJ?
6-max: maybe A-10o?

MP:

9-max: maybe KJo seems a good hand but it's not profitable to open here yet you can profitably open KQ?

As can be seen I don't know a great deal about this and would love someone to give me a real good analysis of minimum hands to open at all tables (9-max and 6-max) particularly for 6-max sit and go's.
At the moment I'm playing around 18/18 and breaking even. Help me please!

Basically I would like help completing a decent starting hand chart like this:
6-max:
UTG:
MP1:
CO:
BTN:
SB:
BB:

JOEBOB69 · Jan 18, 2011

18/18 is a little tight for 6 max IMO.Limping in some spots is not all that bad.

ben_rhyno · Jan 18, 2011

I've been playing between 4-12 tables at 3.25 tho so 18/18 is quite a lot of hands, maybe drop to 4 and open up to 24/18ish

pol_92121 · Jan 18, 2011

Many players folds aq aj from utg or utg + 1 in a 9 players table because is easy to be dominate by ak or another monster hand...from the button you can call with many hands like a7 or 55...

ben_rhyno · Jan 18, 2011

Yeh but I mean whats the minimum I should be opening UTG with at a 6-max table and other positions?

PattyR · Jan 18, 2011

when i was playing 6max ben i was raising any pp and suited aces...was running close to 21/ 17

Shufflin · Jan 18, 2011

I play 9-man tournament tables, but my rule of thumb has been thus:

From the button, I open raise with any two cards 7 or higher. Then for every seat I am to the right, that required value goes up by one. So UTG plays nothing below a king.

Of course, I tweak this a bit (I'll open raise most pocket pairs anywhere; not gonna open with QJ in MP1, etc) but for multi-tabling, I like to have my rules for quick preflop decisions, and this seems to work ok.

watchtowel · Jan 18, 2011

I play KQs, A10s and AJs+ UTG. Pocket pairs I play all mid and up UTG and sometimes just all of them 22+ lol. Mid I will play KJ, QJ but not J10 or J9. I seem to profit playing this way. This is standard for me but I do change it up quite a lot depending on the table.

ben_rhyno · Jan 18, 2011

For 6-max you mean ryan? I'm currently opening JTs+,JTo anda above in mp

LizaBuv · Jan 18, 2011

Just 6 Max

ben_rhyno said:
With the exception of the blinds and button, what hands are unprofitable to play from different positions on a 9-handed and 6-handed table?

An example of what I mean is:
UTG:
9-max: The best starting hand which is probably unprofitable to open would be maybe AQ/AJ?
6-max: maybe A-10o?

MP:

9-max: maybe KJo seems a good hand but it's not profitable to open here yet you can profitably open KQ?

As can be seen I don't know a great deal about this and would love someone to give me a real good analysis of minimum hands to open at all tables (9-max and 6-max) particularly for 6-max sit and go's.
At the moment I'm playing around 18/18 and breaking even. Help me please!

Basically I would like help completing a decent starting hand chart like this:
6-max:
UTG:
MP1:
CO:
BTN:
SB:
BB:

You just looking for 6 max? I could give you my 9 handed range if you want...LizaBuv

LizaBuv · Jan 18, 2011

Hands

UTG 88+ AQ, KQ ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs
EP 55+ AJ, KJ, QJ A3s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T8s, 98s, 87s

MP 22+ AT, KT, QT, JT Axs, K5s, Q8s, J8s, T7s, 97s, 86s, 76s, 65s

HJ 22+ A8, K9, QT, J9, T9 AXs, KXs, Q6s, J7s, T7s, 96s, 86s, 75s, 65s, 54s

CO 22+ A4, K9, Q9, J9, T8, 98, 87, 76 Axs, Kxs, Qxs, J6s, T6s, 96s, 85s, 75s, 64s, 54s, 43s

BU/BB 22+ AX, Kx, Q6, J7, T7, 97, 86, 76, 65, 54 AXs, KXs, QXs, J2s, T2s, 94s, 84s, 74s, 63s, 53s, 43s

SB Tight-Use BU; Average-Use MP; Loose-Use UTG

c9h13no3 · Jan 18, 2011

JOEBOB69 said:
18/18 is a little tight for 6 max IMO.Limping in some spots is not all that bad.

Ban plz.

This is a dumb question. Depends on the players at the table and stack sizes. But assuming you're playing a table full of fish, then you should still be pretty nitty whenever you feel you could be playing a pot OOP.

This means that if you're in the CO, and you have a 100% VPIP guy on the button, you should be opening up with your UTG range (well maybe a bit wider), because you're going to be playing OOP.

watchtowel · Jan 18, 2011

ben_rhyno said:
For 6-max you mean ryan? I'm currently opening JTs+,JTo anda above in mp

Nah thats full ring, im only a little looser at 6max

ben_rhyno · Jan 19, 2011

c9h13no3 said:
Ban plz.

This is a dumb question. Depends on the players at the table and stack sizes. But assuming you're playing a table full of fish, then you should still be pretty nitty whenever you feel you could be playing a pot OOP.

This means that if you're in the CO, and you have a 100% VPIP guy on the button, you should be opening up with your UTG range (well maybe a bit wider), because you're going to be playing OOP.

No my question is not dumb, and I am not looking for villain dependent answers at this time. I'm looking for solid starting hand requirements from proven winners at 6-max sit and go's. I am already a winning player but think tweaking my starting hands may help me improve my ROI a bit

ben_rhyno · Jan 19, 2011

MOD: please put this in tournaments or back in general poker, it's been wrongly moved to cash games

c9h13no3 · Jan 19, 2011

In a SnG, stack sizes vary so much that you're REALLY going to need a different set of answers for different stack sizes. You'd need like 4 hand charts to make an experiment like this correct.

zackryan28 · Jan 19, 2011

ben_rhyno said:
With the exception of the blinds and button, what hands are unprofitable to play from different positions on a 9-handed and 6-handed table?

An example of what I mean is:
UTG:
9-max: The best starting hand which is probably unprofitable to open would be maybe AQ/AJ?
6-max: maybe A-10o?

MP:

9-max: maybe KJo seems a good hand but it's not profitable to open here yet you can profitably open KQ?

As can be seen I don't know a great deal about this and would love someone to give me a real good analysis of minimum hands to open at all tables (9-max and 6-max) particularly for 6-max sit and go's.
At the moment I'm playing around 18/18 and breaking even. Help me please!

Basically I would like help completing a decent starting hand chart like this:
6-max:
UTG:
MP1:
CO:
BTN:
SB:
BB:

I don't understand why everyone is asking for more information. Eventually, your numbers are going to even out.

I've got over 100K hands logged on my Tournament indicator, and my numbers are 18/15. I play 9 man all the time, so if I did start playing 6 man, it might look like 22/18. I profit well with this style, but you have to understand that I go from super super tight to very loose at the end. During the green M Zone stage, I play 8/6. By the time the M is red, I'm playing 32/28.

I should also note that I've been playing more tightly lately. For this month, I am only playing 15/14, and my Aggression factor is WAY up. Number analysis is not always the best way to try to improve because the numbers can be misleading. There are guys with my #s with huge profits, and others with negative ROI% because they make foolish moves at critical stages. Work on your ICM, your bubble play, and your heads up play. That's my advice.

c9h13no3 · Jan 20, 2011

zackryan28 said:
I don't understand why everyone is asking for more information. Eventually, your numbers are going to even out.

How does this even matter? Sure the numbers even out. But the point is to know what to do in specific situations, not know what the average is.

To put it this way: I probably raise the flop with top pair in a cash game 30% of the time. But knowing that 30% average number is meaningless, it doesn't afford you any more knowledge on when to raise the flop with top pair.

Same goes for preflop ranges. If I tell you that on average I raise 98s on the button, that's completely worthless information. If I tell you I raise it against people who have high fold BB to steal %'s, I rarely raise it against fish, and that I usually raise it only when fairly deep stacked, THAT gives you useful information. THAT'S why this thread is dumb. Because people are asking for GENERAL information that won't help them make SPECIFIC in game decisions. Learning GENERAL advice like "play KJo" will get you raped when you start calling UTG raises with it.

What it sounds like our OP wants is a NASH equilibrium chart, except for 6 players instead of just the usual 3. However, even that's just the game theory optimal play, and not anything exploitative.

What you need to learn is WHY you play certain hands and a general idea of what sort of equity they have against a few general ranges your opponent has. And honestly the easiest way to learn that stuff is through hand analysis, which is why we always tell new players to spend more time in the HA forums.

[/rant]

pat3392 · Jan 20, 2011

^ The guy above knows his stuff

Suprised no one asked if OP is talking about MTT or SnG; maaaaaasive difference in the ranges

ben_rhyno · Jan 20, 2011

I'm talking about turbo 6-max STT's. c9 definitely knows his stuff and I agree I'm looking for a flexible hand chart depending on early-mid-bubble and heads up play. I play fairly tag- 8/8 while blinds are 10-20 to 25-50 and open up from there. . I know enough about ICM but still struggle a little with bubble play. What I do notice at bubble time is that my AF is around 1-2.0 while others is as high as 8.0, despite me shoving with hands I think are solid enough to push at the bubble with 5-8BB's (22+,Ax, K2s+,K8o+, Q5s+, Q8o+, J7s+, J9o+, SC's above 67+ and offsuit connectors 89o+ aswell as suited 1 gappers like 10-8 and 9-7) With such a wide shoving range why is my AF so low? Is this range too wide for bubble play?
Another thing: I have a good grasp of the nash equilibrium concept for heads up but still seem to get more 2nd's than 1sts, despite having a 46% ITM over 300 games. My shoving range is basically any pair, any ace, any suited king, K4o+, suited queens, higher suited jacks and suited connectors and my calling range is any pair, any ace, K6s+,Q9s+, JTs+ only.

c9h13no3 · Jan 20, 2011

ben_rhyno said:
With such a wide shoving range why is my AF so low?

The stat is postflop aggression. Preflop actions don't affect AF or AFq (which is a better statistic than AF anyways, but that's another thread).

Besides, I don't think there are enough hands in a SnG for AF to converge to any meaningful value.

ben_rhyno said:
Another thing: I have a good grasp of the nash equilibrium concept for heads up but still seem to get more 2nd's than 1sts

NASH equilibrium is just the game theory optimal range. At the stakes you likely play, they're not *THE optimal* range. You need to be exploiting your opponent's tendencies.

ben_rhyno · Jan 20, 2011

Ok i'll take these things into consideration and adjust my ranges accordingly

pat3392 · Jan 20, 2011

I think a general chart could be made that's assuming there's only standard TAGs to act behind and it's early game. However, not familar enough with 6-max ICM. I know KQo is an open UTG at 6-max cash if you believe your much better than the opposition and there's no 3-bet dynamic going on. However, it'd be a fold at SnG due to ICM. So make a chart based on KQ being a closeish fold, and loosen/tighten it accordingly

btw, you've got late game all wrong........ bubble play is more about the dynamics than the cards and nash equilibrium teaches nitty play

zackryan28 · Jan 20, 2011

c9h13no3 said:
How does this even matter? Sure the numbers even out. But the point is to know what to do in specific situations, not know what the average is.

To put it this way: I probably raise the flop with top pair in a cash game 30% of the time. But knowing that 30% average number is meaningless, it doesn't afford you any more knowledge on when to raise the flop with top pair.

Same goes for preflop ranges. If I tell you that on average I raise 98s on the button, that's completely worthless information. If I tell you I raise it against people who have high fold BB to steal %'s, I rarely raise it against fish, and that I usually raise it only when fairly deep stacked, THAT gives you useful information. THAT'S why this thread is dumb. Because people are asking for GENERAL information that won't help them make SPECIFIC in game decisions. Learning GENERAL advice like "play KJo" will get you raped when you start calling UTG raises with it.

What it sounds like our OP wants is a NASH equilibrium chart, except for 6 players instead of just the usual 3. However, even that's just the game theory optimal play, and not anything exploitative.

What you need to learn is WHY you play certain hands and a general idea of what sort of equity they have against a few general ranges your opponent has. And honestly the easiest way to learn that stuff is through hand analysis, which is why we always tell new players to spend more time in the HA forums.

[/rant]

I wasn't responding directly to the OPs entire post about what hands he should open with. I was telling him the fact that he's 18/18 can mean a lot of different things depending on your playing style. The only thing I can say on the surface, without any other knowledge, is that he is probably a little bit to TAG. There are situations where calling rather than raising is optimal, thus why I think numbers such as 18/15 are more conducive towards winning.

Anyways, developing a chart for exactly what you should be playing at 9 man and 6 man would be way to complex. There are too many dependent factors. How aggressive are the people to your left? How strongly to the blinds defend? How confident are you in post flop play? These factors can drastically change your style

"Best" losing hands from each position? (6-max tourney question)

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