Is BB won per hand a relevant performance measure for tournaments?

Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
I noticed that i keep improving my average statistics considerably lately while playing MTTs and freerolls but I dont seem to get into the money more often, rather the opposite.
What is your experience with this statistics? Are you a very succesfull tournament player and have a very small big blind won per hand ratio or do you get a decent(more than 0.10bb/hand) value and are you cashing close to zero?
Is this stat even relevant in tourneys?

I am basically looking for some proof that I am improving or getting worse while the results are not changing at the moment so any suggestion/experience is welcome.
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
I'm not totally sure although I am about 95%(just like I was when I hero called that guy earlier that felted me :)) that stat is not relevant in a MTT or an SNG.
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Total posts
3,904
Chips
0
nope, since BB/100 =/= "$ earned" in a tournament, we don't really care about it.
 
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
So the only measure of skill would be the ITM percentage or rather winnings overall? These are very longterm-many tournmts measures though.
Any suggestions about some relevant partial success measure? How do you guess if you play good or bad during the swings?
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
Upper right corner on this page there are four tabs. Click the one that reads "strategy articles." Then click on the "no limit" tab. At the bottom are the SNG strategies.

Read all these and see if you are playing like this.
 
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
DetroitJimmy said:
Upper right corner on this page there are four tabs. Click the one that reads "strategy articles." Then click on the "no limit" tab. At the bottom are the SNG strategies.

Read all these and see if you are playing like this.
Click to expand...

Yeah, thanks, I will go through it more thoroughly, sir. So far it seems like I do exactly what they describe there though.
Like here(citation):
"You can play great poker for three or four hours and then seconds later the little box has popped up telling you that you finished 142nd of 1200, agonisingly short of the money."
That one I actually follow most of the time :D
 
spunka

spunka

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Total posts
884
Awards
2
Chips
67
Krk said:
Yeah, thanks, I will go through it more thoroughly, sir. So far it seems like I do exactly what they describe there though.
Like here(citation):
"You can play great poker for three or four hours and then seconds later the little box has popped up telling you that you finished 142nd of 1200, agonisingly short of the money."
That one I actually follow most of the time :D
Click to expand...

Actually that line says a lot, MTT is very very much about discipline, you can play very well for 3 - 4 hours and lose everything when you forget to focus or make a mistake.

When you make those mistakes go through them and find out why you did make them, and then correct it in the future, now that sounds easy, but it is actually the hard part.
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
Sorry, I thought you were playing SSTs. Guess I need to read more carefully. MTT have much more variance.

SST's are a better way to start IMHO. They will also give you practice for the final table which is where all the money is made in a MTT.
 
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
DetroitJimmy said:
Sorry, I thought you were playing SSTs. Guess I need to read more carefully. MTT have much more variance.

SST's are a better way to start IMHO. They will also give you practice for the final table which is where all the money is made in a MTT.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I agree with that. I only have to get some bankroll with the freerolls though, which are more like MTTs, but I actually got used to it and it seems more and more fun.
Any suggestion of what would be a good min. bankroll for those say 36field SnGs?
 
tpb221

tpb221

Chasing Gutshots
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Total posts
2,095
Awards
1
Chips
0
The stat you use for mtt/sng's is ITM% and most important- ROI(return on investment). SnG players use ROI to determine how well there playing.
 
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
spunka said:
Actually that line says a lot, MTT is very very much about discipline, you can play very well for 3 - 4 hours and lose everything when you forget to focus or make a mistake.

When you make those mistakes go through them and find out why you did make them, and then correct it in the future, now that sounds easy, but it is actually the hard part.
Click to expand...

I have experience with that, I usually am able to identify the mistake and these are sad moments. But even if I know what to not do and what to do, it is really a big task to keep your concentration the whole time. Also if I accidently do, then there is always a bad beat ready around the corner :).

This kind of tournament play is actually a real test of mental endurance, which can be even fun if you like it that way. But that was the reason why I was actually looking for a relevant partial statistics, something that could give me some satifaction for improving at least a little bit.
 
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
Krk said:
Thanks, I agree with that. I only have to get some bankroll with the freerolls though, which are more like MTTs, but I actually got used to it and it seems more and more fun.
Any suggestion of what would be a good min. bankroll for those say 36field SnGs?
Click to expand...

Sorry you are apparently not the oly one not reading carefully at first(for some reason I always think about 36SnGs at first while talking smaller tourneys) :). We are talking SSTs here. So i am asking about a min. BR suggestion for those.
 
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
tpb221 said:
The stat you use for mtt/sng's is ITM% and most important- ROI(return on investment). SnG players use ROI to determine how well there playing.
Click to expand...

Ok, that one is quite easy to analyze. It is bad when I dont cash and good when I cash, right? :)).
But if I am not making it ITM often enough, when can I comfort myself with the asumption that this is just bad luck and how do I know that it is a bad play and vice versa?

As hinted at the start of the thread I reached almost 10percent ITM last month with like -8bb/100 and I have the feeling that I play a lot better this month and also have around 10bb/100, but my ITM percentage is under 5. How to analyze that?
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
You can make the right play in a tourney and get busted out. Post the hands you're not sure about in the "tournament hand analysis" thread. That will be your best bet to know if you are playing right. Don't post the results. Short term results are B.S. Don't worry about BB/100. ITM% is way more important. Even more important than that is ROI%.

I think after 1000 STT's if you show any profit at all you are okay. You want to aim for Well over 5%ROI for the micro's. I think maybe even 10% with a ITM of 40%+. Of course if your ROI is over 10% then don't even worry too much about your ITM%! ROI is your most important #. If you're ITM% is small and you ROI is positive it just means you're winning more and not just placing. This is a good thing.

Just remember you won't have even close to an accurate ROI% until at least 1000 games.

As for BR if ya got $50 I would play $2.25 STT. You could play the $1.20 ones but the rake blows. On the other hand they are far softer than even the two dollar ones. Play those until you reach over $150 or under $25. In which case move up or down.

If you insist on playing 2-5 table SNGs, play the lowest level available. If playing freerolls or any other MTT you may not cash for many times in a row so get used to it. I think for MTT 10% ITM is about right but that's after playing a truckload. ROI% should be way higher than SNG but this is after a HUGE sample.

Just remember when you are playing a MTT it's not likely you will win. If you are a good player it is still like a lottery. You just hold more tickets than the fishies!
 
Last edited:
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
DetroitJimmy said:
You can make the right play in a tourney and get busted out. Post the hands you're not sure about in the "tournament hand analysis" thread. That will be your best bet to know if you are playing right. Don't post the results. Short term results are B.S. Don't worry about BB/100. ITM% is way more important. Even more important than that is ROI%.

I think after 1000 STT's if you show any profit at all you are okay. You want to aim for Well over 5%ROI for the micro's. I think maybe even 10% with a ITM of 40%+. Of course if your ROI is over 10% then don't even worry too much about your ITM%! ROI is your most important #. If you're ITM% is small and you ROI is positive it just means you're winning more and not just placing. This is a good thing.

Just remember you won't have even close to an accurate ROI% until at least 1000 games.

As for BR if ya got $50 I would play $2.25 STT. You could play the $1.20 ones but the rake blows. On the other hand they are far softer than even the two dollar ones. Play those until you reach over $150 or under $25. In which case move up or down.

If you insist on playing 2-5 table SNGs, play the lowest level available. If playing freerolls or any other MTT you may not cash for many times in a row so get used to it. I think for MTT 10% ITM is about right but that's after playing a truckload. ROI% should be way higher than SNG but this is after a HUGE sample.

Just remember when you are playing a MTT it's not likely you will win. If you are a good player it is still like a lottery. You just hold more tickets than the fishies!
Click to expand...

That is a very good and usefull analysis for me so thanks for that. I am not near the 1000 mark even with the freerolls so I will have to do my best myself to judge, which is no what I liked.

I see a problem with the hand postings in the forum. Everybody is analyzing the hands there one by one and not very often considering the table mood, the momentum, the predictions of fold equities, other potentional chip gain opportunities etc. not even the implied odds. So if someone tells me hey with trips here on flop you should have definitelly gone all in it is usually either obvious or kind of useless to me. It seems too much like a rush poker approach to me.
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
If you include all the factors you will get a better analysis. For the most part your answers will include all of the above(pot odds, implied, ect..)

For instance this would get you some good answers:

Villian is 55/3/1 over 1293 hands. He will call down weak holdings with nothing ect... Then post HH. After ask questions about what you think may be a wrong move. Most of the people here who post advice will be able to tell you if you made the right move or not. If you don't have HUD stats, then tell them everything you have observed about that opponent. If you have no reads then say so, but you will get a less accurate answer.
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
Judging from your thread times I am guessing you have a day off or you are like me and have pretty much all day to be online if you wish.

For every three hours you play spend at least one on HH analysis. Even if you don't post them you can sometimes find mistakes you won't notice while you play.

If you don't have a lot of time then still do the 3 to 1 thing. If you do the work off the table you will be heading in the right direction. That is what separates the okay players from the good ones.
 
Krk

Krk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Total posts
99
Chips
0
DetroitJimmy said:
Judging from your thread times I am guessing you have a day off or you are like me and have pretty much all day to be online if you wish.

For every three hours you play spend at least one on HH analysis. Even if you don't post them you can sometimes find mistakes you won't notice while you play.

If you don't have a lot of time then still do the 3 to 1 thing. If you do the work off the table you will be heading in the right direction. That is what separates the okay players from the good ones.
Click to expand...

You are right, I fortunately have quite some time to spend on poker, although I would not call it exactly a day off. Keep in mind that there is some time lag between Europe and the city of cars and red wings :).

Thanks, I just dont know why so many times I subconsciously prefer to get busted and busted again to sitting down and analyzing.
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
Krk said:
You are right, I fortunately have quite some time to spend on poker, although I would not call it exactly a day off. Keep in mind that there is some time lag between Europe and the city of cars and red wings :).

Thanks, I just dont know why so many times I subconsciously prefer to get busted and busted again to sitting down and analyzing.
Click to expand...


And don't forget about our Lions:(.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top