bb vs sb

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Teebone

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okay, lets say we(hero) are in the bb with 8-5o, its the beggining of a tournament the first hand its folded around to sb, he limps in hoping to get a cheap flop we assume.


We make a positional raise getting more money in the pot while were at an advantage. Sb sticks around, Flop Ad 10D 8c, we improved, also villain could think were likely holding an ace, however villain(sb) donk bets us. Of course we re-raise with ATC, but what is our range hear. What is villain putting us on when we re-raise, if we actually have a good hand lets say Ak or Aq dont we just call in hopes villain bets again?

Lets also put ourselves in Sb head, what is he hoping to do with the donk bet, and what does he think our re-raise means?

This is interesting to me because if i was sb i would more likely check-raise, id be assuming bb knows alot about poker and he is doing what any good player would do, he's just playing his position well. Would donk bet/3bet be a more powerful route vs check-raise? Were assuming bb has nothing or something he can be bet off of.
 
PayMeh

PayMeh

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Depends what kind of stakes the buy in is for the tournament. If it's a really low buy in or freeroll then SB could have anything. Regardless of this fact just because you've improved your hand doesn't mean a whole lot here. You've flopped bottom pair horrible kicker. With hole cards like 85o unless you flop a straight here (if you flop 2 pair it could still be a straight draw for someone else) your best bet is to concede this pot and wait for a better hand to play.

There's nothing wrong with trying to steal a pot from the BB when you think the SB is just trying to limp in. Personally I wouldn't even attempt this kind of a steal until I had more information about the players. When you get called or reraised you should just shut down from there unless you flop a monster. Remember you have zero information about how the SB plays since it's the first hand of the tournament.

Your flaws here are a few things. First off putting much stock in a weak pair of 8s given 2 overcards on the board. A67 rainbow is the only way I would even entertain the thought of continuing that hand. Secondly assuming that SB knows anything at all about poker at the beginning of a tournament is wrong on so many levels. For all you know it could be a rich crazy lady who decided to let her pet chimp Coco try his luck.

I wouldn't call a bet anyone makes a donk bet unless he/she is holding the nuts and min bets. They've already got you to commit more chips than you should have. Chances are you're beat by at least an ace, diamond broadway, or an AT that decided to limp just in case you pushed first hand. Either way you're a huge dog here against any hand that caught a piece of that flop.
 
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matt20

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I'd say the best play is to check behind the limp there. Your not really going to win any huge pots in this situation. The donkbet usually means he hit some part of the board, gutshot, pair, OESD, flush draw (it would be helpful to include bet sizing, if its a minbet hands tend to be weaker compared to a half to pot-sized bet) . I don't think re-raising the flop here is a very good option as your committing a lot of chips with a pretty weak hand. If he bet pot you have very little fold equity and are going to be putting yourself in a pretty unneeded tough situation. If its a min-bet then raising isn't too bad, but if villain continues to call down and donkbet I'd give up the hand cheaply. If I was in the small blind if you re-raise the flop your range would be slightly dependent on what I myself had for hands, but Ax, 10x, Broadways with flush draws and some weaker hands (air) trying to push villain off pot.
 
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AceZWylD

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I agree that a check behind the limp is the best play here. If he has enough of a hand to complete the blinds, he has odds to call a 3 bet (2 more BB) with ATC from the SB.

I seriously would like to know the reasoning behind making a positional raise on the first hand of the tournament against the sb. With the blinds so low compared to stack sizes, you gain what? 10 chips? Psychological advantage? Well, now you are likely to lose 30 chips (or more) and there is no psychological advantage gained because 10 hands from now neither of you will be playing at the same table anymore. Save trick plays for the middle and end stages, when they actually mean something.
 
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Teebone

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What i was doing in this hand was playing my position, the cards are irrelevant. Also this wasnt at the beggining of a tournament, that was just a quicker way to say i have no read, as im not asking for weither or not i made the right or wrong play.
Dont mean to sound rude.

What im asking is for our ranges. If for future purposes im in the sb and i limp in villain raises, i call, i donk bet, and get re-raised then i 3 bet villain, will villain need a monster to call? Or would 3 betting preflop be a better move?



Also what kind of villain do we raise from the bb when villain try's to limp.
 
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AceZWylD

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Why would you ask us a question and not give us accurate information to answer your question with?

The way your question was asked is how it was answered. Don't like the responses, stop being lazy.

Now. why don't you actually give us some REAL information so that we can ACCURATELY answer your question.

BTW, middle to late stages, you are almost always beat here.
 
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AceZWylD

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OK. Sorry if I was an ass before. But that was kind of shitty to give us information to answer a question, then get mad at us because we didn't answer your question properly because you gave us the wrong information to begin with.

Now that I have actually read your question.

I would still need more information.

Blinds, chip stacks, your M, villians M, are you ITM or are you at the bubble. Stuff like that.

With the informaiton given, I still don't think you had enough of a holding to play your position aggressively pre flop. There are times and circumstances where it is appropriate to play your position, but this is not one of them. Almost anything on the flop knocks you off of the hand, because you HAVE to make a C-Bet now to try and take down the pot, and your hand has no strength to play against a raise. Could villian be playing position against you? Sure, but do you want to pay to find out? And the question isn't really, what range would I put villian on. It is more, what range can I beat. 8/4,8/3,8/2,77,66,55,44,33,22. Thats it. Not a wide enough range to stay in the hand.
 
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LizzyJ

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AceZWylD said:
I seriously would like to know the reasoning behind making a positional raise on the first hand of the tournament against the sb.
Click to expand...

Why? Person was probably dealt K-J and thinks it's an absolute monster.
 
white_lytning

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With the information you gave the SB range is AA through 7 2.
 
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matt20

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Teebone said:
What i was doing in this hand was playing my position, the cards are irrelevant. Also this wasnt at the beggining of a tournament, that was just a quicker way to say i have no read, as im not asking for weither or not i made the right or wrong play.
Dont mean to sound rude.
quote]

I wouldnt say its ever good to just say "I have position" I will just bet to force him out of the pot. A lot of players fall into this trap and run into spew type tendencies. Its very helpful to give stack sizes and blinds as well because if you were both shallow then you dont have a whole lot of fold equity if hes donking into you so it would probably be a spew.
Click to expand...
 
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BenLZ

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I don't know why you would raise in the first place. I mean, what about the concept of calculated risk? Why are you assuming his bet is a donk bet (a bluff?) rather than him having aces? What is the buy in for this tournament? You're taking an unnecessary risk.
 
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Teebone

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AceZWylD said:
Why would you ask us a question and not give us accurate information to answer your question with?

The way your question was asked is how it was answered. Don't like the responses, stop being lazy.

Now. why don't you actually give us some REAL information so that we can ACCURATELY answer your question.

BTW, middle to late stages, you are almost always beat here.
Click to expand...



My apologies. I was just writing this hand from memory, thanks everyone for your reply's this post should be el oh el'd off the forum. I dont have the information to help u guys to help me. I was half asleep, should have never posted this. I was over thinking the hand.
 
PayMeh

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What im asking is for our ranges. If for future purposes im in the sb and i limp in villain raises, i call, i donk bet, and get re-raised then i 3 bet villain, will villain need a monster to call? Or would 3 betting preflop be a better move?



Also what kind of villain do we raise from the bb when villain try's to limp.
Click to expand...

No worries.. It's always best to get others takes on your play when you're unsure. To answer your questions... I'd only 3 bet preflop if you're faced with a super weak raise (anything less than 3xBB) and you were going to raise initially.

Once the flop hits 3 betting looks more like a steal attempt than anything else, but for everytime someone pushes thinking you're bluffing he'll fold 10 times. If villian thinks he's holding the best hand and bets out while you have something like trips with a pocket pair, 3 betting will not net you as much profit as flat calling and letting him think you're on a draw. Sure you'll get more money in the pot by 3 betting the flop, but letting him think he's ahead when he's not is a better strategy. Save your 3 bet for the river if you hold the nuts or a hidden monster.

Only time I would 3 bet as a bluff would be a squeeze play at a tight table against weak raises from players who you know to fold to high aggression.
 
Exit141RTe1

Exit141RTe1

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The donk bet is trying to make something out of 8 5 off. Fold it and move on.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Teebone said:
What i was doing in this hand was playing my position, the cards are irrelevant.

..........


Also what kind of villain do we raise from the bb when villain try's to limp.
Click to expand...

If you dont know the answer to your last question, then I would suggest that you are not playing your position.

Could you tell us what kind of opponent this particular player was (your understanding of him at the point you decided to 'play your position with ATC'?

Until you understand the villians limp-fold and limp-call range plus his fold to c-bet frequency you are not 'playing position' you are blindly raising and struggling postflop.
 
Stu_Ungar

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PayMeh said:
To answer your questions... I'd only 3 bet preflop if you're faced with a super weak raise (anything less than 3xBB) and you were going to raise initially.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't get into 3-betting super light against steals.

THe small bet size is because of the wider range thats being played, its not (or should not) be reflective of the actual hand being played.

If you start 3-betting every small raise, you will be easily exploited.

So we are getting back to understanding our opponents ranges rather than a simple.. lets 3-bet blow him of his hand type of thinking.
 
PayMeh

PayMeh

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Basically I was only advocating a 3-bet if your normal preflop raise with the cards you hold is greater than the initial raise which has picked up a handful of callers. One of those situations where you're telling the raiser "If you're going to raise at least do it right. I have strong cards and want the weaker drawing hands out of this action.." Basically given the situation posted I should have just said I don't think 3 betting to resteal or protect blinds is a good idea if that's all you're trying to accomplish.. =)
 
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