Bad players shoving all-in (reducing skill gap)

Does a bad player shoving all in reduce the skill gap? What I mean by that, is that given that AK (considered a strong hand) is only a like a 65/35 favourite against any random two under cards (I think). And also pairs like 99 TT JJ QQ KK aren't THAT strong (villain still has a chance) against any rag ace. So what I'm saying is, poor players can stop better players from out playing them by shoving pre flop and leaving it more up to luck than skill. Do you think this is true? And if you do, how can we combat it?

no, you are wrong
if they go all in when they shouldnt they are playing bad, and you can take advantage of this calling whit a strong range
65/35 for a lot of chips is very nice for you

depends on chip size, i always regret not going all in with a small to med stack, if you lose oh well id rather gamble with ak then any other non pair.

Archer_eSp said:

no, you are wrong
if they go all in when they shouldnt they are playing bad, and you can take advantage of this calling whit a strong range
65/35 for a lot of chips is very nice for you

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Yes I know. But to add to my first point, if they it is a speed sit and go for example, you don't have an awful lot of time to wait on a good hand to call them so I believe weak players can reduce the poker to more luck based than skill based by playing more pre flop than post. Just food for thought.

no, bad players will never reduce the skill gap...because bad players don't have any skill to start with lol...its up to you as a 'skill' player to pick your spots based on what the situation is...just need to adjust and make good decisions...also, the games/stakes you play will affect what players play them...you will get a lot of shove fests in freerolls for example...not cc ones, but normal ones with 20k entrants...and at the lowest micro stakes...

and obviously the higher you go up in stakes etc, the better the player pool will be...that's something else you have to adjust to

think of it as a ladder process...first rung shovefesters.

I believe that in a way it does close the gap i consider myself a "skill" player and yet I am not very successful in freerolls because of the all-in preflopers it is nearly impossibloe to win with my "skills" when players are constantly shoving. Not only does it take some of my skill away and therefor close the gap it ruins the game your not playing poker anymore your playing bingo. people can say what they want but my edge, being a skill player, is reduced if not eliminated by the all'in preflop EVERY HAND for example i just got beat with AA by a 8-4 offsuit all in preflop
so i think that it closes the gap
that being said in onder to combat that i have to play higher stakes games if you want to play poker you have to play for money and not pennies lol dollars

AlexandriaVP said:

I believe that in a way it does close the gap i consider myself a "skill" player and yet I am not very successful in freerolls because of the all-in preflopers it is nearly impossibloe to win with my "skills" when players are constantly shoving. Not only does it take some of my skill away and therefor close the gap it ruins the game your not playing poker anymore your playing bingo. people can say what they want but my edge, being a skill player, is reduced if not eliminated by the all'in preflop EVERY HAND for example i just got beat with AA by a 8-4 offsuit all in preflop
so i think that it closes the gap
that being said in onder to combat that i have to play higher stakes games if you want to play poker you have to play for money and not pennies lol dollars

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absolutely Cent percent agree with.. bad Players shoving any hands pre allin tend to Play more variece games , but also tend to damage good Players mtt life as well.cos they shove all in with any Hands , n gd Players tend to call allin with gd Hands n then get sucked out on...it happens day n night .. u ll Play for Long time just to get gd stack , then one donk Comes allin with shit Hands n then beat ur AA or KK just lie that n ko u out of that mtt. so all the hard work is undone for nothhing.

lately cc freerolls are becomming Bingo style games as well cos of lower Posts requirement to become frc members now. sorry to say , but it s a fact. in cc freeroll many Players shovingallin from starting . good poker is dying . but thats how it is . we ve to adjust and ready to go out from Level 1 if it requires. what to do.

AlexandriaVP said:

I believe that in a way it does close the gap i consider myself a "skill" player and yet I am not very successful in freerolls because of the all-in preflopers it is nearly impossibloe to win with my "skills" when players are constantly shoving. Not only does it take some of my skill away and therefor close the gap it ruins the game your not playing poker anymore your playing bingo. people can say what they want but my edge, being a skill player, is reduced if not eliminated by the all'in preflop EVERY HAND for example i just got beat with AA by a 8-4 offsuit all in preflop
so i think that it closes the gap
that being said in onder to combat that i have to play higher stakes games if you want to play poker you have to play for money and not pennies lol dollars

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I don't totally agree. I've been watching a fair bit of online poker on Twitch, and something that I hear a lot from the pro's is "picking your spots". What are those spots? Let's just say for example you are playing a 6 handed Hyper S&G (assume 500 chips starting stack, blinds going up every 3 minutes), the first orbit or two can be spent observing what the other players' tendencies are. Play a slightly tighter range until you get a feel for what they're trying to do.

Then, start attacking those spots, exploit what others are doing. Case in point, we were down to 4 handed when I picked up A8, which in a shorthanded game is pretty strong. I shoved all-in pre, as I was first to act. I got called, as expected by the chip leader with 82, and I won the hand.

I'd rather shove A8 than call with A8, and would definitely NEVER call with 82 unless the situation was something like this.

I'm up against one opponent in a hand and they are so short stacked that if I were calling, I'd be committing such a tiny percentage of my stack.

Learn shove/fold strategy. Find out what hands are good shoving hands, in what situations, and you'll find that more often than not, you're getting your money in good, but more importantly, you're reducing the instances where you're dominated.

AlfieAA said:

no, bad players will never reduce the skill gap...because bad players don't have any skill to start with lol...its up to you as a 'skill' player to pick your spots based on what the situation is...just need to adjust and make good decisions...also, the games/stakes you play will affect what players play them...you will get a lot of shove fests in freerolls for example...not cc ones, but normal ones with 20k entrants...and at the lowest micro stakes...

and obviously the higher you go up in stakes etc, the better the player pool will be...that's something else you have to adjust to

think of it as a ladder process...first rung shovefesters.

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I'm more inclined to agree with this, and I'm going to say this again, it's about picking spots rather than waiting for hands. Now, of course there will be times where you're going to get your chips all-in and your opponent is going to wake up with a big hand, but that's not going to happen enough of the time to cause you to lose money long-term.

It reduces the advantage you have over worse players. Say someone that had no idea how to play poker played against Phil Ivey heads up. Their best strategy would be to shove every hand so Ivey would have to pick his spots very carefully. Even then there is still a chance of the novice having a big hand or just being an underdog and hiring the board...

Shumkoolie everything that you posted in response makes perfect sence to me thank you honestly your are exactly right and have opened my eyes a little bit i have cahs in those freeroll and i am realising there is a viable strategy that can be used in the low stakes freerolls to cash more often then not

AlexandriaVP said:

Shumkoolie everything that you posted in response makes perfect sence to me thank you honestly your are exactly right and have opened my eyes a little bit i have cahs in those freeroll and i am realising there is a viable strategy that can be used in the low stakes freerolls to cash more often then not

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Glad someone can see my point. All good feedback.

Stephenunited said:

Does a bad player shoving all in reduce the skill gap?

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No...they just change the dynamic of the game.
Maybe I should state otherwise.
As a skilled player you definitely have to have a good understanding about how to play post-flop.
As a skilled player you also have to have a good understanding of push-fold and allin-call ranges.
Those allin-fish just change the game from postflop play to preflop play.
Now, as they don't have a clue what they're doing, just pushing about every hand and you do have a clue about what range to call with, you still have an edge, although now it's a preflop edge instead of a postflop edge.

Than, I also read something about bingo players....well how cool is that...players who pay you off with their trashhands ?

Btw, if you look at the results of the CC freerolls at Stars and FTP you'll find out most of the players cashing are still those good old skilled CC regs.

What you say is true, learning those spots is essential the problem turns to luck though calling within your proper ranges, adjusting your strategy becomes more difficult.
I find that the freerolls are very frustrating. I suffer bad beat after bad beat my most recent (a few hours ago) I had a 15BB stack Villian1(UTG w/K-9o) has 45BB and Villian2(Button w/J-7o) has just under 15BB (12-11) I'm in the small with AA (full table) Both Villians Limp I Shove Both Call (I expected this I observed loose Play) Flop Ah-8c-7d Turn 6c River 10h

So that being said you need alot of luck to win freerolls ESPECIALLY on pokerstars lol

AlexandriaVP said:

What you say is true, learning those spots is essential the problem turns to luck though calling within your proper ranges, adjusting your strategy becomes more difficult.
I find that the freerolls are very frustrating. I suffer bad beat after bad beat my most recent (a few hours ago) I had a 15BB stack Villian1(UTG w/K-9o) has 45BB and Villian2(Button w/J-7o) has just under 15BB (12-11) I'm in the small with AA (full table) Both Villians Limp I Shove Both Call (I expected this I observed loose Play) Flop Ah-8c-7d Turn 6c River 10h

So that being said you need alot of luck to win freerolls ESPECIALLY on Pokerstars lol

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thats called variance.....if you think your big hands pre will hold up postflop then you'll need to give your head a wobble...learn about variance in poker......also, why are you playing these freerolls?...you should just deposit what you can and start at the micro's...

but then again, you would probably still bitch about getting bad beats lol...you've got a lot to learn man.

I agree with the opening post line, i've seen it a great number of times (especially in HU games) that if your opponent doesn't feel comfortable playing you will shove more, especially preflop.

How to del with it? Try to understand his shoving range and then call him with hands that crush that range, simple as that. Be patient

Maybe your sample size is not large enough,skill and patient are for long term and luck is only short term.

i have to disagree with you. it depends on the size of the stack the player has. in fact kings and queens and even jacks or tens are very strong preflop hand because for example kings beat hands like ace king or ace queen 70% of the time so going all in with these hands might be the best way of playing when you are shortstack. it might reduce the amount of skill gap on the short run especially on a coinflip situation however i think that evens out in the long run.

Go pre-flop all-in is not a good Idea with any hand, because the whole game is reduced to flip a coin- win or lose-no skill, i'm often go all-in with good hand(in my opinion) in the begining of some freeroll with small prizes and a lot of players, if doubled-good, lose-no pity))

No Brainer said:

It reduces the advantage you have over worse players. Say someone that had no idea how to play poker played against Phil Ivey heads up. Their best strategy would be to shove every hand so Ivey would have to pick his spots very carefully. Even then there is still a chance of the novice having a big hand or just being an underdog and hiring the board...

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I agree with this. It may not be closing the "skill gap" but it definitely is a way a unskilled player can frustrate a skilled player. In the free rolls you can run an 80/20 hand against these shove donkeys only as often as you get them and you're going to lose 1 in five of those hands, let alone if you are calling lighter with a 65/35 hand.

trezvennick said:

Go pre-flop all-in is not a good Idea with any hand, because the whole game is reduced to flip a coin- win or lose-no skill, i'm often go all-in with good hand(in my opinion) in the begining of some freeroll with small prizes and a lot of players, if doubled-good, lose-no pity))

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The other thing with going all-in pre-flop is you are giving up value from the hands at the top of your range. Here's an example.

Assumption: 1500 chips with blinds of 15/30 so both players have good stacks relative to blind levels.

You have Aces and the board runs out something like this. K4739 rainbow and you are betting out every street against somebody with KQ and you win their entire stack. Conversely, if you shoved all-in pre-flop, more often than not, you aren't going to get called by a hand like that and that spot is lost.

I shove all in if I don't care about the tournament, and don't want to waste time on it, but if I do hit the all in, it could otherwise give me an edge with more chips if I am going to actually play it. this is the general feeling I have about most freerolls like the one from ARC 10$

I love to shove in on a good high pair no matter what

It is very simple, if you see that the '' poor player '' is giving all in when takes hands value , just wait to get a hand value that you think you're ahead ( this will depend on the amount of times he is giving the all-in ) . Thus the equity of who gives all in this way will be bad , it will be paid only with hands value and when winning the hand only take the blinds.

Thanks

I want to say thank you to every single person who has posted in this thread. Thank you so much, if it wasn't for all of your intelligent posts my eyes never would have been opened. Reading your posts made me realize something (I can't say what in particular not because it will give anything away but because there is alot to it) I tightened my game, watched the stacks and play my position to my first "big" win on Pokerstars $225 USD. The next tourney I played next I placed 53 and won another $15 USD.

Goodluck on the tables to all!!!!!!

I find that sometimes playing with idiots is easy to get to monay. just need wait for good spot 1v1 if you can and have shot with pairs or if you can also see flop try suited connectors!!!