The awesome “big better”

Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Total posts
1,203
Chips
0
Things I have learned the hard way, 101.

I tell you, these guys kill me. I see them all the time; guys who only play a few hands, but over bet the crap out of them preflop and on every street, for gross amounts of money. If this is you, do me a favor and paint a target on your back, because I’m coming for you.

Not that I need it. Usually, I'll just fold. Now how much are you going to make off me?

This is a type of betting tell. Always entering the pot for 2.5 or 3x the blind is great, and they will never know what you have. When you have to fold, you only lose that much. But over betting every hand you are in sooner or later gets you fried, for far more than it should. Here’s why;

You might have a big stack now, but if your big bet gets overcalled by a short stack who has been waiting for AA, you might not only lose your big bet, but the extra it cost to call a few $$ more the shove costs. If it only happens a few times, great, but more often than not it adds up and just kills their big stack.

Let’s say you do it with AK and all fold. Next hand you get AA and do it again. Now people at the table think you’re full of it and just might call with anything. Sounds great, but remember that just because you have AA, you have not won yet. So, then you get KQ suited, and decide to limp in. This allows far weaker hands to join, and increase the odds of hitting a better flop. So, maybe you decide to only raise it 3x now. Well, after all those big bets, now you look totally weak. Can you keep track of all that flawlessly and come out on top? Yes? Then, why are you in this cheap game and not on the WPT?

If you always come into a pot for obscene amounts, logic dictates it’s not always AK or AA, KK, etc that you are doing it with. Soon you will get more and more callers, and since you are betting more, you will lose more. Yet if you only occasionally come in with a big hand for big bucks, people might just always fold to you. Sounds good, huh? Sure, until you ask yourself how long you can survive off the occasional blind. Because, that’s all you'll make from your hands, if they simply fold! No double ups for you, no winning value bets, no bet on every street and win a big pot. Nope, not you, Mr. Big Bet. Pretty soon, your “big stack” is quite puny compared to others who know...you have to risk a flop to make any checks. While some think this is key to "survival poker", It can have drawbacks. Much better to mix your game up. If you never fold (C-bet on and on) you become a target for the trappers. They just limp AA and wait for you to over shoot your AK, etc.

Poker players can not live off blinds alone!
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Total posts
1,203
Chips
0
Come on folks, 230 views, not one comment. So, if you think I'm crazy or not, say something, give me some feedback!
 
vinnie

vinnie

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Total posts
1,208
Awards
1
US
Chips
50
I am not a tournament player, but I've played a few. Out of any specific context, I can't say if someone's overbet preflop is wrong. If I know a player is going to defend their blind to almost any raise pre and fold when they miss the flop, you had better believe I am raising big when I steal.

This also depends on stack sizes and how people play post-flop. There's just a whole lot that could make big betting an ok play. Is it always the best way? No. But I am not sure it's a big losing play like you make it out to be.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Total posts
1,203
Chips
0
I follow.

I am not a tournament player, but I've played a few. Out of any specific context, I can't say if someone's overbet preflop is wrong. If I know a player is going to defend their blind to almost any raise pre and fold when they miss the flop, you had better believe I am raising big when I steal.

This also depends on stack sizes and how people play post-flop. There's just a whole lot that could make big betting an ok play. Is it always the best way? No. But I am not sure it's a big losing play like you make it out to be.

But I often see people bet different amounts to the point you know what cards they have! Also, be careful...."If I know a player is going to defend their blind to almost any raise pre and fold when they miss the flop, you had better believe I am raising big when I steal." If I see you do that to someone, keep in mind I might deliberately make you think I'm the same way, and trap you into doing that so I can felt you. Just proceed with caution. You are never the only one to notice things at the table. Not only that, you hit someone on the head enough, they might wise up, and catch you bringing the hammer down!

But, I really like the cut of your jib! Chip that sucker.
 
vinnie

vinnie

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Total posts
1,208
Awards
1
US
Chips
50
Well, you're probably not going to be in the blinds if you're watching me do it to a weaker player in the blinds. ;) And, usually this is aimed at a fit-or-fold defender, when I c-bet and they do anything but fold, I am pretty much going to let them have it unless I have a real value hand. Pretty much the clueless people. I am not saying it's impossible to exploit my play there (it is very exploitable) just that I try and pick the people who won't know enough to exploit it or how. And, yeah, it isn't an every chance I get thing either. I don't want to clue them in too much and start making them play better against me.

As for the players changing bet sizes based on predictable hand strength, they're really bad. They are also pretty hopeless. I love those players in the cash games, where I often have deep enough stacks to try and crack their big hands. In a tournament, I often end up just letting them have it. They're only hurting themselves by not getting value with their hands and/or putting in too many chips in regards to the pot reward. Not all over-bettors are doing it based on hand-strength though. I often size my bets based on position, table dynamics, and opponents still involved. Make sure it isn't someone raising big simply because of who is left to act and their playing style... and not because they have queens and want to end the hand before the flop.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
MargoMardus

MargoMardus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Total posts
36
Chips
0
I play in tournaments and i just hate thous "bingo-players" who raise or go all-in before the flop. And i dont know why the game system like them soo much becase mostly thous "bingo-players" win,at least when i call.Finally you lose not becase you are bad player but becase "bingo-players" have more luck in the game.I try fold in thouse cases but sometimes they make me angry and i call if i have some normal cards.
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
I don't know where is the problem here. They have their own strategy, good for them.

- If they are nits, they chase away the action with overbetting and will get eaten by the blinds.
- If they have TAG stats, again they chase away too many weak hands to get their max profit - those that call will eventually have them dominated.
- If they are loose big stacks, these guys are the best. Yes they suck out a lot but I can't recall how many times I have made a comeback in a tournament through these guys (50/35 VPIP/PFR :D). Two double ups and I am usually golden.
 
F

Flsnookman

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 27, 2013
Total posts
209
Chips
0
I find if you are going to play vs good players in tourney play you had better mix it up or they will eat you for breakfast. You cannot play a set style over and over vs good players as they are paying attention and will figure you out quickly. I know when I hear things like "geez how much do I need to raise to get you to lay that down" or "why would you play that?" that im playing good. Good luck.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Total posts
1,203
Chips
0
I find if you are going to play vs good players in tourney play you had better mix it up or they will eat you for breakfast. You cannot play a set style over and over vs good players as they are paying attention and will figure you out quickly. I know when I hear things like "geez how much do I need to raise to get you to lay that down" or "why would you play that?" that im playing good. Good luck.

Oh, that is music to my ears when they say that. And you are correct; you got to shift gears, or the good players will milk you dry.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Total posts
1,203
Chips
0
I don't know where is the problem here. They have their own strategy, good for them.

- If they are nits, they chase away the action with overbetting and will get eaten by the blinds.
- If they have TAG stats, again they chase away too many weak hands to get their max profit - those that call will eventually have them dominated.
- If they are loose big stacks, these guys are the best. Yes they suck out a lot but I can't recall how many times I have made a comeback in a tournament through these guys (50/35 VPIP/PFR :D). Two double ups and I am usually golden.

The point I was trying to make is that it is not a very good strategy. You end up overinvesting every hand to the point where it kills you.:)
 
D

deedbr

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 21, 2013
Total posts
27
Chips
0
I love them. If the stack sizes are right for both of us, I will call them with speculative hands. I am hoping to double through them or knock them out.

A lag player that can shut it down when they know they are in trouble won't pay me off as well as a tag player. Not all tag players play it the same way. These are the ultra tight ones that are so glad to finally play a hand that they can't stand the idea of throwing it away and loosing the pot.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Total posts
1,203
Chips
0
I love them. If the stack sizes are right for both of us, I will call them with speculative hands. I am hoping to double through them or knock them out.

A lag player that can shut it down when they know they are in trouble won't pay me off as well as a tag player. Not all tag players play it the same way. These are the ultra tight ones that are so glad to finally play a hand that they can't stand the idea of throwing it away and loosing the pot.

That would explain seeing them going all the way to showdown w AK and no hand except that ace high!
 
imafish

imafish

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Total posts
192
Awards
1
Chips
1
Sounds like you got it figured out.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
all in or fold preflop is generally going to be much closer to correct than any other sort of "real poker" strategy you think they should be using.

if you think you can profitably call preflop on 15-20 bb stacks with speculative hands you haven't worked out the math.
 
D

deedbr

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 21, 2013
Total posts
27
Chips
0
all in or fold preflop is generally going to be much closer to correct than any other sort of "real poker" strategy you think they should be using.

if you think you can profitably call preflop on 15-20 bb stacks with speculative hands you haven't worked out the math.

In regards to my previous comment no I wouldn't be calling with those stack sizes. Which is why I stated if the stack sizes are right for both of us.

At the beginning of the tourney usually the stack sizes to blind ratio will allow you to play speculative hands for a few rounds. The deeper the stacks the more rounds you can speculate.

I personally don't care for the all in or fold strategy until later in the tourney when the blind to stack ratio really leaves no room for other moves. When players incorporate it at the beginning of the tournament they are risking everything for a minor increase to their overall stack size. Risk reward is very backward at that point in the tournament.

Dan Harrington explains in one of his books why it is a negative EV play. He could definitely be wrong about it. However, since he knows more about the game than I do I will agree with his way of thinking.
 
Top