At what point should you go push/shove/fold mode?

In the 2000 GTD R/A on ACR, especially at the final table. When should you go push shove?
Obviously earlier in the tournament there are things like Jennifear's charts, but what about final table?
short handed? ETC.
Any info and details are greatly appreciated!
Thanks for being an awesome community!

I'm finding myself at more final tables lately, and feeling a little aimless. I keep a semi tight image so I kinda know how to work that, but especially late tournament when stress is high, i feel like I don't know what i'm doing. I'm currently finishing up a tournament where i bought in 13.20, and will cash for over 290. Which is more than my current bankroll. If i win, i'll have tripled my bankroll!
Good problems!

This is definitely something I'm trying to learn as well; when you're short stacked you can't just think of the equity of your chips - you have to think of the equity of outlasting the guy next to you.

I was pointed to the ICM quiz in poker tracker for something to start getting a feeling for it with - if you have poker tracker it's under one of the tab menus.

spr0ck3t said:

I was pointed to the ICM quiz in poker tracker for something to start getting a feeling for it with - if you have poker tracker it's under one of the tab menus.

Click to expand...

The ICM quiz is definately the right place to start with. If you're using PT, make sure to use the HUD and adjust your push/call range according to the players behind you and the desired action you want. For example, pushing with AA is actually not a very good idea, since you do want some action.

CDRBuilder said:

The ICM quiz is definately the right place to start with. If you're using PT, make sure to use the HUD and adjust your push/call range according to the players behind you and the desired action you want. For example, pushing with AA is actually not a very good idea, since you do want some action.

Click to expand...

If you only ever do 3.5bb or whatever when you have aces and shove with every other hand you want to play, isn't that exploitable?

I supposed it depends on actual stack size too, but if you're open shoving hands and then basically limp in it seems like it'd let them know you have aces and give them a good price to crack them - unless you're also opening 3.5bb/folding when already short stacked (and again I guess it depends on stack size).

I play the $2 and $3 buy ins usually for 1000, 1500, or sundays 2000.

If you want to building a little more incrementally, with some cashes and wins and give yourself more shots, I'd use a 300 bankroll for this.

spr0ck3t said:

If you only ever do 3.5bb or whatever when you have aces and shove with every other hand you want to play, isn't that exploitable?

I supposed it depends on actual stack size too, but if you're open shoving hands and then basically limp in it seems like it'd let them know you have aces and give them a good price to crack them - unless you're also opening 3.5bb/folding when already short stacked (and again I guess it depends on stack size).

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it was an example. Of course you have to balance your opening range.
BTW, a 3.5BB raise on the final table is HUGE. I'd usually minraise since basically, everyone will be short. On the other hand, you do not want to shove with QTo into a table full of deep stacks.

CDRBuilder said:

it was an example. Of course you have to balance your opening range.
BTW, a 3.5BB raise on the final table is HUGE. I'd usually minraise since basically, everyone will be short. On the other hand, you do not want to shove with QTo into a table full of deep stacks.

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Thanks - I'm never sure how to size my bets as everyone gets short relative to the blinds.

Definitely not trying to sound like a knowitall or anything - I'm a freeroll hero and trying to learn

stillgotouts said:

In the 2000 GTD R/A on ACR, especially at the final table. When should you go push shove?
Obviously earlier in the tournament there are things like Jennifear's charts, but what about final table?
short handed? ETC.
Any info and details are greatly appreciated!
Thanks for being an awesome community!

Click to expand...

Depends on position in tourney has the bubble burst ect but 10 big blinds roughly I am in push or fold territory.

I kind of disagree gently with the advice that shoving with AA is a bad idea.
AK will probably call for all their chips preflop, but if the get to see a flop they dont hit they will often shut down. Same thing with QQ or JJ, they could easily call the all in preflop then shut down when the K or A shows up on the flop.

If you are short stacked, shove.

what is short stacked? for me 8-10 BB is plenty short, but many people consider it 6-8 BB.

spr0ck3t said:

This is definitely something I'm trying to learn as well; when you're short stacked you can't just think of the equity of your chips - you have to think of the equity of outlasting the guy next to you.

I was pointed to the ICM quiz in poker tracker for something to start getting a feeling for it with - if you have poker tracker it's under one of the tab menus.

Click to expand...

OH! Gotcha, I didn't have any money so when my trial expired I didn't buy it. But now i guess I could reasonably choose to get it. This brings up another question! At what point should I spend winnings on things like Poker Tracker instead of continuing to play and having more bankroll security/going up stakes?

Also, PT slows my computer down majorly, to the point where I actually missed the occasional hand when I was using it. So maybe I need to wait until I make decent money from poker and upgrade my hardware and software at the same time.

CDRBuilder said:

The ICM quiz is definately the right place to start with. If you're using PT, make sure to use the HUD and adjust your push/call range according to the players behind you and the desired action you want. For example, pushing with AA is actually not a very good idea, since you do want some action.

Click to expand...

Well I think the reason you're getting pushback on this is because there are missing details to this advice. Like, obviously it makes sense to shove 6BB with aces. So what is the push/shove range you're discussing here?

CDRBuilder said:

it was an example. Of course you have to balance your opening range.
BTW, a 3.5BB raise on the final table is HUGE. I'd usually minraise since basically, everyone will be short. On the other hand, you do not want to shove with QTo into a table full of deep stacks.

Click to expand...

Thanks for this important detail. I've been doing this, but i hadn't articulated it to myself yet.
I think more interestingly, what do you do with your raises in late position when everyone behind you is short stacked? especially the blinds? I usually only go down to 2BB raises but only when that is the case. I usually like to stick with 2.5BB raises, or i'm shoving/folding. it's just easier for me at this stage i'm at.

20 BB is where I would start considering it If I get AA/KK/AK. But as others have said you'd have to factor in how short other players are, who's in the pot, and can you get away with seeing a flop?

stillgotouts said:

OH! Gotcha, I didn't have any money so when my trial expired I didn't buy it. But now i guess I could reasonably choose to get it. This brings up another question! At what point should I spend winnings on things like Poker Tracker instead of continuing to play and having more bankroll security/going up stakes?

Also, PT slows my computer down majorly, to the point where I actually missed the occasional hand when I was using it. So maybe I need to wait until I make decent money from poker and upgrade my hardware and software at the same time.

Click to expand...

You're farther along than I am on this - but what I've read is essentially once you know you're a winning player, there's a couple different cashout options for bankroll management - stuff like "I'll pay myself $3 for every tourney I play", or "I'm pocketing 40% of all winnings over whatever my latest all-time-high was" (don't actually use these exact numbers). If you're still trying to grow your roll and climb stakes, buying PT out of your bankroll can slow you down a lot.

PT slowing your PC down a lot is definitely a problem. I'm actually in IT and do computery stuff; if you post what hardware you have or whatever I can probably tell you if it's worth limping along with and how long you can.

Tylor Mendez said:

I play the $2 and $3 buy ins usually for 1000, 1500, or sundays 2000.

If you want to building a little more incrementally, with some cashes and wins and give yourself more shots, I'd use a 300 bankroll for this.

Click to expand...

Yeah i've been kinda debating bankroll management stuff at the stage i'm at. I recently took some shots at the $6 Rebuy/Add on tournaments, which is why I have a decent bankroll now.

My reasoning is that it's worth taking slightly more risk in order to progress because all I'm risking is the $50 I started with, and I can rebuild if need be. Now that I have more of a bankroll I'm sticking with the $6 rebuys as a maximum until I have a couple grand. I prefer playing the smaller rebuy tourneys.
Honestly it's probably still too risky for me. Idk. But also I don't play them as rebuy tournaments, i only ever use the Add on if i get that far. So maximum, i'm risking $13.

spr0ck3t said:

You're farther along than I am on this - but what I've read is essentially once you know you're a winning player, there's a couple different cashout options for bankroll management - stuff like "I'll pay myself $3 for every tourney I play", or "I'm pocketing 40% of all winnings over whatever my latest all-time-high was" (don't actually use these exact numbers). If you're still trying to grow your roll and climb stakes, buying PT out of your bankroll can slow you down a lot.

PT slowing your PC down a lot is definitely a problem. I'm actually in IT and do computery stuff; if you post what hardware you have or whatever I can probably tell you if it's worth limping along with and how long you can.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that! I hadn't heard that yet! I don't think I'm at the stage where I want to take any money out of my bankroll, but if it was for software idk, does that warrant an exception?

I have a macbook pro.Processor: 2.7 GHz Intel Core i5
Memory: 8 GB

14bb and under I start shoving. But in turbo and hyper turbos a lot of times you are in top 30% with 14bb, so in faster level tournaments I start shoving with 8-9 bb and lower.

stillgotouts said:

In the 2000 GTD R/A on ACR, especially at the final table. When should you go push shove?
Obviously earlier in the tournament there are things like Jennifear's charts, but what about final table?
short handed? ETC.
Any info and details are greatly appreciated!
Thanks for being an awesome community!

Click to expand...

I think it's the same as any point in the tourney I mean if i got 10 bb's and I see A5 suited it's going in. The only time i'd deviate is if there are a couple other super shorties at the FT I might wait em out to ladder up . And if I have the big stack I'm putting max pressure on the shorties Knowing they are thinking the same way. Sorry if it didn't help much good luck at the tables.

fishfood80 said:

I think it's the same as any point in the tourney I mean if i got 10 bb's and I see A5 suited it's going in. The only time i'd deviate is if there are a couple other super shorties at the FT I might wait em out to ladder up . And if I have the big stack I'm putting max pressure on the shorties Knowing they are thinking the same way. Sorry if it didn't help much good luck at the tables.

Click to expand...

No definitely helpful! Thanks for your personal insight!
I’ve recently had no time to play, gotta make myself real money, but i’m excited for some time off to devote myself to the game again!