At what point do you take your flips in a tournament?

Ok, for arguments sake - we know we're most likely flipping after you raise and get shoved.


When do you fold a flip and when do you call knowing both times it's a flip?

Obviously in tournaments you need to be flipping to win a few times, but is there certain times you do and dont?

The amount of god forsaken times I'm realatively deep in a tournament and know im highly likely going to be flipping if I call his shove here or if I 3bet shove this guy and he calls, I will be flipping.

It's just annoying something your tournament goes to a flip so I'd like to try narrow down my flips,

Based on how many blinds left, when will you flip or call a shove with say A,10+ vs under pairs? 20blinds and lower or even possibly higher? Does it depend on the structure more than anything?

how do you know it's a flip?

If you really know, then take it. Why would you do otherwise?

Yeah, it depends on stack sizes and structure and dead money in the pot.
To baudib1: U put your opponent on a range, if you have 50% equity vs his/her range then its a flip.

if you have exactly 50% equity it's always a call because there will always be dead money in the pot

Pascal LeFiscal said:

if you have exactly 50% equity it's always a call because there will always be dead money in the pot

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Well not always, there are cases when you want to fold.

baudib1 said:

how do you know it's a flip?

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only_bridge said:

To baudib1: U put your opponent on a range, if you have 50% equity vs his/her range then its a flip.

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Me thinks baudib was asking the OP how reliable their reads are.

only_bridge said:

Well not always, there are cases when you want to fold.

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always a call in terms of chip ev tho

Pascal LeFiscal said:

if you have exactly 50% equity it's always a call because there will always be dead money in the pot

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It isn't always a call because in terms of tourney ev what is the right mathematical decision is not always the right decision to tie up the biggest %age of the prize pool. I prefer to avoid conflips against the big stack and try and bully the table, I think that was is much better.

fixed my statement in above post

ramdeebam said:

Ok, for arguments sake - we know we're most likely flipping after you raise and get shoved.


When do you fold a flip and when do you call knowing both times it's a flip?

Obviously in tournaments you need to be flipping to win a few times, but is there certain times you do and dont?

The amount of god forsaken times I'm realatively deep in a tournament and know im highly likely going to be flipping if I call his shove here or if I 3bet shove this guy and he calls, I will be flipping.

It's just annoying something your tournament goes to a flip so I'd like to try narrow down my flips,

Based on how many blinds left, when will you flip or call a shove with say A,10+ vs under pairs? 20blinds and lower or even possibly higher? Does it depend on the structure more than anything?

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It really depends on many factors for me to consider flipping.
If villian is a relatively tight player who has me outchipped and I have a stack of 15"M"+ I may consider flipping with AK+ based on villians position.
If villian is loose, I will call a coin-flip with AT+ but only against one player.
When I consider a coin-flip I consider how my opponents are playing and the size of my chip stack before even thinking about flipping.

you can stop taking flips at the final table when you can wait for someone to bust to move up a payscale.

baudib1 said:

you can stop taking flips at the final table when you can wait for someone to bust to move up a payscale.

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That rather depends on the payout structure. Some are extremely top-heavy, especially in live tournaments. In a top-heavy structure, moving up from (say) eighth to seventh is of little consequence, and doubling-up so that you have a more realistic chance of the outright win may be much more valuable.

shinedown.45 said:

It really depends on many factors for me to consider flipping.
If villian is a relatively tight player who has me outchipped and I have a stack of 15"M"+ I may consider flipping with AK+ based on villians position.
If villian is loose, I will call a coin-flip with AT+ but only against one player.
When I consider a coin-flip I consider how my opponents are playing and the size of my chip stack before even thinking about flipping.

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if your so shore you flipping than whats the difference of how your oponent are playing , you have 50% chance of winning if they are a maniac or a rock ?

why should you stop flipping on the finall table , Imo the blinds are puting so much pressure on us that we need to gamble, otherwise we might not get a better chance to double up and win.
or when really short (10bb) im praying for a flip. But prize structure makes a difference ofcorse.
the only time im avoiding flips if its a qualifier where a few places get through and im the big stack.
I play a home game once a month where the prize structure looks like this
1) 500 , 2) 250 3)100 so when 3 player left im raisng like crazy here because difference between 2-3place small, difference between 3-1 place hyge.

Usualy i am taking flips depending on the stack sizes and position more than anything. Usualy i do not take unecessary risks in the first part of the tourney while blinds are low, and at the final table where ppl tend to hang themselfs after playing good poker untill that moment.I think i flip most times near the bubble when i am shortstack. When i have a big stack i never flip for more than 1/3 of my stack and i do this only if the dead money on the pot are at least 1/3 of the stack of the villan. I just feel confortable like this. On good days winning 2-3 flipcoins lilke this covers up all the money lost in 15-20 flips before. What is important for me in tournaments is not to cash in something but to get to the final table where the real money are. So near the buble or near the final table is where the difference is made.
.

Final tables don't come around that often, and it's pretty important (as noted by others here) to know the payout structure.

Usually the difference between finishing 15th and 50th isn't going to be very big but very often moving up 1-2 spots at the FT is going to make significant impact on your bankroll.

I still don't quite understand the whole "know you're flipping" thing. I think swingpro is talking about calling all-ins with hands like 66 or live cards like QJ that are likely to be flipping.

Baubid1 :

I mean when it comes to crunch time, you have a middle pair, you open raise/shove whichever, still everyone is in the region of 10-30blinds or so as an average.

You get shoved on by someone(Knowing they are trying to maybe steal the pot(either way if they are, chances are they have two overs) from you or shoving with two good overs), most time you know you will facing 2 over cards, a classic flip situation is usually the case as opposed to being domianted by a higher pair or so on.

Obviously if they are nits you are most likely behind but in general, I mean most times when it's all in, I call or shove knowing most times I'm in a flip situation if called.

I suppose the question is more actually if holding middle pairs, when do you take a flip or just open shove and expect to be called by overs or vica versa, if you think someone is shoving middle pairs and you hold A,10+ for example, when do you call for a flip?

depends

Flips

I try and take them as little as possible

baudib1 said:

Final tables don't come around that often, and it's pretty important (as noted by others here) to know the payout structure.

Usually the difference between finishing 15th and 50th isn't going to be very big but very often moving up 1-2 spots at the FT is going to make significant impact on your bankroll.

I still don't quite understand the whole "know you're flipping" thing. I think swingpro is talking about calling all-ins with hands like 66 or live cards like QJ that are likely to be flipping.

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Exactely. Anyway most of the time they are 60/40 max. Of course sometimes you crush your had into something big but in general this kind of hands specially when the villan is on the button or on SB and shoves for a steal are most likely to be flipping or better. But than again to be able to call them you need a good stack because if you gamble for almost you entire stack, while still confortable and others have to make a move soon to survive, is not a good thing in my opinion.

Flippin out.

Hi,
I take my flips on several occasions.
1. I'm short stacked with 99 or better.
2. I'm on the bubble or very close and I want some chips to make a run at it.
3. I'm heads up and we made a favorable deal.
4. My wife calls me and tells me we just won the lottery.

the best answer is it depends, how many blinds, tourney structure, what place you are in, your opponents, etc....

Heads up, I'll take a flip if my perception is that my opponent is a better player than I am.

Pascal-lf said:

if you have exactly 50% equity it's always a call because there will always be dead money in the pot

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ICM

In general, thread titles like this let me know you're not a great tournament player. Equity in tournaments doesn't matter nearly as much as how much money you stand to win if the hand doesn't go to showdown. Good players focus on stealing blinds, and finding innovative ways to win money without showdown.

Pascal-lf said:

always a call in terms of chip ev tho

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^ ^