approach when you are under 20 BB

what is the right approach when you are under 20 BB in a mtt?

we can opt for wait until a big pocket or big A, or should we open our range of hands and shove with any Ax or pocket?

problem i see with waiting is that one is fading away without action, and maybe going up slowly in the ladder of prizes

by the other hand, if you success while putting all your chips in the center you have a chance of double or triple your stack and get over 20 BB and keep playing your poker,

Many factors play a role in determining what kind of play you should adapt while short stacked in MTT. There is really no way to generalize in this context.

Questions you should ask yourself are:

1. How large are other stacks in comparison to mine?
2. What are the table manners?
3. What is my table image?
4. What stage is the tourney at? (mid, deep, bubble, ITM, etc.)
5. What cards have I been dealt for the last 30-40 hands?

Number 5 could help you speculate odds of, perhaps getting better cards if you've been running dry for a while.

In any case, there are so many factors it's difficult to give one perfect solution.

etherghost said:

Many factors play a role in determining what kind of play you should adapt while short stacked in MTT. There is really no way to generalize in this context.

Questions you should ask yourself are:

1. How large are other stacks in comparison to mine?
2. What are the table manners?
3. What is my table image?
4. What stage is the tourney at? (mid, deep, bubble, ITM, etc.)
5. What cards have I been dealt for the last 30-40 hands?

Number 5 could help you speculate odds of, perhaps getting better cards if you've been running dry for a while.

In any case, there are so many factors it's difficult to give one perfect solution.

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This should never be a factor. If they dealt you 72o for 40 hands straight, there's a chance they can deal you 83o for the next 40.

Blobweird123 said:

This should never be a factor. If they dealt you 72o for 40 hands straight, there's a chance they can deal you 83o for the next 40.

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I disagree. However, I did say "speculation". For instance, if you have the odds of hitting an A or K over 50 percent of the time preflop it does not mean you will see an A or K on board half the time out of 1000 hands. Similar odd speculation can be used in this case.

When i have less than 20 BBs i stop limping and start to play restricted hands, like suited connectors, big pairs, hands like that. For me that´s the right way to play because you don´t have a stack to be "creative", that´s why you have to play less hands.

kmichaels said:

When i have less than 20 BBs i stop limping and start to play restricted hands, like suited connectors, big pairs, hands like that. For me that´s the right way to play because you don´t have a stack to be "creative", that´s why you have to play less hands.

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+1

This's a good point, sir even because it's a rare post where it is mentioned to check the own stack in comparison with opponents and so keep the tournament avg in consideration (point 1) when evaluating the right action in different spots.
Anyway i believe it is not the point of op.

etherghost said:

Many factors play a role in determining what kind of play you should adapt while short stacked in MTT. There is really no way to generalize in this context.

Questions you should ask yourself are:

1. How large are other stacks in comparison to mine?
2. What are the table manners?
3. What is my table image?
4. What stage is the tourney at? (mid, deep, bubble, ITM, etc.)
5. What cards have I been dealt for the last 30-40 hands?

Number 5 could help you speculate odds of, perhaps getting better cards if you've been running dry for a while.

In any case, there are so many factors it's difficult to give one perfect solution.

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@jj20002 Question too general and vague, the best it is if you try to post some hands to talk about.
Anyway google got loads of stuff about the 20bb play which might be helpful to discuss, I guess

Regarding point 5 I agree coz of what you stated

However, I did say "speculation". [cut]

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ps: maybe it's better if i post tmorrw, not the best posting after a couple of pints coz i risk to post useless stuff sry for the OT

If you base what you have been dealt recently on how you will move forward, you are not playing correctly. That's all I have to say about that.

Blobweird123 said:

If you base what you have been dealt recently on how you will move forward, you are not playing correctly. That's all I have to say about that.

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and yes, anyway what you saying it's correct!! I misread.

This to say I agree that, planning the further action on the hands just dealt it is not sensed enough to justify what we will be playing. It does not (shouldnt) definitely affect the preflop hand selection. NO way.

imgine you already are itm

imgine you are itm,

let´s say remining players 90, and 90 are in the prizes, but then every 9 players your prize race,

so, for instance i have been in a mtt today, and i was dealt KJs, i was like 6 bb, and seated in the CO,

four big stackers limped (1BB=4k and my stack 24k), after was the SB who was very active and with a stack around 80k,

i had the option to shove or to call, i did call, but then the SB went allin,

my thinking was he has a big pocket or a strong ace and is trying to avoid more than one big stacker see the flop,

one of the bigstackers called and i folded against two players and don´t see KJ strong enough

if a were played i were won the pot which would let me go from 24k to 90k (including blinds, antes and limpers who later folded), and i was played in the next 20 hands around 4 or 5 hands that i coudn´t play having less than 18k and the blinds increasing (were in 10k after 20 hands)

and those 4 or 5 hands i would probably (seing the flop) won 3 or 4, so i think i could be over 200k instead of 18k and dwindling with the antes and just waiting for the blinds to finish,

i finish this mtt at 74, but i consider i could reach among last two tables

yes, i know there are a lot of ´´what if´´ and that´s why i want your opinion on that

when you have less than 20 bb you wanna make sure you are getting involved with a very good hand, not speculative hands ( unless you are in late positions and no one raises) if you have less than 10 bb, the best move
is to go push your entire stack in almost every situation. having more than 15 bb gives you some margin to keep playing a bigger range of hands, however you must try to avoid paying 3 bets, because you can be pot commited and you wont be able to fold your hand even if you dont hit anything on the flop. so basically enter with good hands bet aggresive preflop and dont get pot commited.

You should never padronize your plays. As some other guys have advised your play with under 20 BB's will vary according to how the action is going on at your table, what are the players sitting there (agressive, passive, etc) and the stack size of your oponents.

IMO the most important thing is trying not to get blinded out. It might look like its too few BB but if you have 20 BB you still have stack to put alot of moves. Try to atack the smallest stacks whenever you can (in a limp situation I.E. where you are in Late position you could push a smaller stack all-in with any 2 cards, if he is a loose player he will most likely fold and you'll end up with all the blinds), and avoid the big stacks cause they can flert you up and outdraw you.

Having 20bb's or less is a very common situation and you will be there most of your tournament lifes, try to find good spots to steal the blinds while you wait for a monster to double up.

Blobweird123 said:

If you base what you have been dealt recently on how you will move forward, you are not playing correctly. That's all I have to say about that.

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Agreed! Although, I do skim my hand history, when in an MTT, at least 4-5 times to see the perspective. I've been noticing some interesting patterns in this area. Just saying...

etherghost said:

Agreed! Although, I do skim my hand history, when in an MTT, at least 4-5 times to see the perspective. I've been noticing some interesting patterns in this area. Just saying...

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I don't really think it is possible to have a "pattern" over dealt cards.
Every new hand is totally independent from all the previous one and its gonna bring a totally diferent scenario (otherwise, it will be just coincidence). Of course that as you are dealt cards sometimes it may look like there are some patterns but if you take it into account to make your plays you will be basing yourself into superstition, and I believe this is not good at all.

Poker is situational, so you shouldn't have a set strategy that you automatically employ whenever you get down around 20bb. As already noted, various factors can influence how you might look to play.

That said, a play that you need to have in your arsenal is the shove re-steal; i.e. someone opens, preferably a loose table bully type, and you 3bet shove without a premium hand. Note that this doesn't mean rags. It does mean a reasonably wide range that depends on how much fold equity you feel you have, how much of the opener's range you think he'll call with, the image you think you have (tighter is better), etc.

etherghost said:

Many factors play a role in determining what kind of play you should adapt while short stacked in MTT. There is really no way to generalize in this context.

Questions you should ask yourself are:

1. How large are other stacks in comparison to mine?
2. What are the table manners?
3. What is my table image?
4. What stage is the tourney at? (mid, deep, bubble, ITM, etc.)
5. What cards have I been dealt for the last 30-40 hands?

Number 5 could help you speculate odds of, perhaps getting better cards if you've been running dry for a while.

In any case, there are so many factors it's difficult to give one perfect solution.

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Regarding 5: what you have got in the past has NOTHING to do with the probability of getting good hands in the future. That is a basic rule of lotteries.

Thinkola said:

Regarding 5: what you have got in the past has NOTHING to do with the probability of getting good hands in the future. That is a basic rule of lotteries.

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This thread was in the graveyard and you brought it back to life.
Happy Easter....

etherghost said:

Many factors play a role in determining what kind of play you should adapt while short stacked in MTT. There is really no way to generalize in this context.

Questions you should ask yourself are:

1. How large are other stacks in comparison to mine?
2. What are the table manners?
3. What is my table image?
4. What stage is the tourney at? (mid, deep, bubble, ITM, etc.)
5. What cards have I been dealt for the last 30-40 hands?

Number 5 could help you speculate odds of, perhaps getting better cards if you've been running dry for a while.

In any case, there are so many factors it's difficult to give one perfect solution.

Click to expand...

This always freaks out the math gurus who are all about hard numbers and forget the practical application.

Sure, just as much chance getting 38 off again not AK suited; In reality, there are odds of getting a certain hand within a certain number of hands, certain number of times you will make your st8/flush, etc; If you have had 10 missed st8 draws, you could certainly miss this one, but it's back to basics - pot odds/hand odds, and so on.

20 Bb is just a number - players have won with Lot's less.

Just play what you get as well as you can - if the cards don't come the number of BB left is irrelevant. If you get cards you still need to exploit the others.

The only thing in your favour could be that if the others are high stacked a good hand can pay off as others will be willing to overplay their hands to get you out

With less than 20BB stack wait no longer make sense. Expectant management the maximum that you can count it survive the bubble and catch on the minimum prize. Not such a size bonus you expect when you sit down to play for MTT. Some players even though it is important to have something to gain or regain their buy-in. In this case, the need to take risks, play Aggressive, in any case does not play a limp, more open range of hands, bluffing strong hands. In my experience, the game does not go hand no monsters, the blinds increase, stack melts. Time to wait for a strong hand anymore. Each distribution in which I enter, it is very important. Aggressive game, a lot of bluffing game on the line of departure, the odds of 50 to 50. If you could survive and keep a stack of at least 20BB after the dough is often Wake up the game and increase the stack 3-4 times. When the stack already become comfortable to play more thoughtfully.

Michael Paler said:

This always freaks out the math gurus who are all about hard numbers and forget the practical application.

Sure, just as much chance getting 38 off again not AK suited; In reality, there are odds of getting a certain hand within a certain number of hands, certain number of times you will make your st8/flush, etc; If you have had 10 missed st8 draws, you could certainly miss this one, but it's back to basics - pot odds/hand odds, and so on.

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sigh

With 20BB i think you can still do your game!If you have cards in your hands that makes you fill a winner limp don't bet!The odds to win works when you are playing!