Any reason to limp in / raise with less than 20 BBs late in the tourney?

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Merudo

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Hello all,

When I'm below 20 BBs I tend to either shove or fold preflop. Is there any reason to call instead or to raise a few BBs?

The only scenario that I could see would be to call/raise a couple of BBs with AA, AK or KK if I expect someone to try to steal the blinds by going all-in after me.

Any thought on that?
 
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smwentum

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maybe if you had not a great hand, but enough people limped in...
 
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Teebone

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Only raising AA,AK,AK or KK is being way to nitty. You should be raising more with your position then the strength of your hand. The later position the less dependent on good cards.

This article should help.


------------------->https://www.cardschat.com/preflop-concepts.php





Id call instead of raising if im in position, and against someone who is raising too much. If he's been raising alot and i think my hand does good against his range. If i hit ill most likely be ahead and if i dont, i still have position.

You have to 3-bet shove with 20-bb imo.

Which is why id rather call in this situation.



Id also raise to 2.5bbs from late position alot of the time.
 
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M

Merudo

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Only raising AA,AK,AK or KK is being way to nitty. You should be raising more with your position then the strength of your hand. The later position the less dependent on good cards.

This article should help.


------------------->https://www.cardschat.com/preflop-concepts.php





Id call instead of raising if im in position, and against someone who is raising too much. If he's been raising alot and i think my hand does good against his range. If i hit ill most likely be ahead and if i dont, i still have position.

You have to 3-bet shove with 20-bb imo.

Which is why id rather call in this situation.



Id also raise to 2.5bbs from late position alot of the time.

I tend to either shove or fold with less than 20 BBs.

I see that you play differently, and call occasionally hoping to hit the flop against a villain that might have a weaker hand.

What I don't like about the decision of calling is that you are likely to throw fold equity away, and you allow players to see the flop cheaply.

Also, why raise to 2.5bbs from late position when you can shove?
 
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killingbird

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you can also limp big hands at particularly active/aggro tables with plans to shove over any raise. I especially like doing this when folded to in the SB, with a big stack in the BB...limping often looks weak from a 20 BB or less stack in the SB.

In general though, you should not be raise/folding with a 20bb stack, so only raise hands you plan on going to showdown with.
 
drgilbert4

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It depends on your position and the types of players at your table... if they are very aggressive and you expect a raise or a shove from at least one player, then you can call in early position hoping to come over the top of a raise or call a shove with your aces or kings. If it is a tight table, you may want to go ahead and shove hoping a desperate player will make a mistake.
 
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PlayedYou73

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If you call all of the sudden with aces or kings when previously you have been shoving when your shortstacked...it is a dead give-away that your playing aces, kings, or AK.

Play it the same way and your not giving info about the strength of your hand to anyone.

And trust me, the sudden change in your play will be noticed by anyone who uses a HUD on a program like PT3 or HEM. Those programs won't 'tell' the player what hand you have, but based on every other hand you've played, it'll be easy to deduce it.
 
8Michael3

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I like to limp with medium pairs and pray that an aggressive player in position tries to isolate me with 2 overcards so that I can just shove and flip a coin... If Im down to 20bb or less I need to double up and a pair, IMO, is the way to go.
 
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Skaplun

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I wouldn't shove/fold for more than 10bb where a simple raise in the right spot wins you the money. think about the math of it: if you raise to 3bb and the pot is effectively 2.5bb(antes are added at these stages.) then you have to pretty much steal successfully 50% to break even.
Now if you shoved 20bb to steal 2.5 successfully you need to do so correctly 90% of the time (8/9 instances.) in order to break even in the long run. the likelyhood that this would be true is very small in FR (by successful I mean as a pure steal, if you shove AA,KK we are not looking at a steal but a value play.)
 
lektrikguy

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Shoving with 20 BB is a little much IMO. If you're down to 10-12 then you get it all in. You get just as much info with a 3-5 BB raise as you do with a shove.
 
Poker Orifice

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Shoving with 20 BB is a little much IMO. If you're down to 10-12 then you get it all in. You get just as much info with a 3-5 BB raise as you do with a shove.

Why would we want to raise 5x ??
 
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TSM12

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If you have a bunch of limpers, I would rside about 10 bb and then shove after the flop. However, if there was a few limpers and then a raise with a caller or two, I would shove it all in with AA or KK. the iead it to limit the number of individuals that will call. I have had AA and KK drawnout on so much, that I do not want to have more than 2 others in the pot. Any more than that, you have a much better chance of loosing then wining the hand.
 
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Tonawanda

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Maybe Soon

Still time to win hands without risking all.

But, standard raises sometimes are not enough. Generally, I would start pushing harder with 15BB or less.

With small or middle pairs depending on position, sometimes you need to push a little harder. Some big stacks with mediocre starting hands tend to call against smaller stack's raises. When you don't make trips on the flop (which you won't about 11 out of 12 times), and get raised or re-raised, a good opportunity is lost.

The same thing would apply to good starting hands, not just big pairs and AK, etc.
 
Rldetheflop

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I think the OP is essentially asking if 20bb is too early to go into shove/fold mode. The answer is yes IMO.
 
NCfoldem

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In some Turbo tourneys for example it's not unusual to have your whole table at 20BB or less. You don't necessarily have to go all-in at ANY time. It's a judgement call, as always - the idea being to give your hand the greatest chance of success and more importantly to advance in the tourney if possible.
 
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