W
WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
THere's probably an easier way to work it out. But i just take the pot size, and find out what is roughly 2/3's of the pot. So if the pot size preflop is 300, the BB level would be 200, so the blind level is 100/200.
If the pot size is 500, the BB level would be around 350 so the blind level would be 175/350.
So when we make decisions, we always use ante adjusted as it gives us a more accurate assessment of our stack. There is a few other ways to work this out, but for me that one is the easiest. I just look at the stack size preflop, and work it out from there. It's not neccessary to work out your exact stack size as long as you are within a few BB's it's fine.
So one more example. Lets say the blind level in game is 100/200 with a 25 ante. our stack is 5000 and there are 9 players. The pot preflop is 525, making the blind level around 350 (or 175/350 as an adjusted BB level). So our stack is around about 15 BB's deep adjusted.
If the pot size is 500, the BB level would be around 350 so the blind level would be 175/350.
So when we make decisions, we always use ante adjusted as it gives us a more accurate assessment of our stack. There is a few other ways to work this out, but for me that one is the easiest. I just look at the stack size preflop, and work it out from there. It's not neccessary to work out your exact stack size as long as you are within a few BB's it's fine.
So one more example. Lets say the blind level in game is 100/200 with a 25 ante. our stack is 5000 and there are 9 players. The pot preflop is 525, making the blind level around 350 (or 175/350 as an adjusted BB level). So our stack is around about 15 BB's deep adjusted.
Ducky7
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
A way to work out your relative chip stack when ante's are introduced is using "M". M is like BB's in its a measurement to your chip stack but accounts for antes.
To work M out you work out the pot and then see how many times it divides into your chip stack (EG blinds 100/200 with 25 ante at a 10 handed table) pot therefore is 550 before action, and say you have 11,000 in chips, your M is exactly 20.
Like BB's there a hands you shouldnt play with a small chip stack (EG sc's with less than 20 bb's)
A quick guideline to M would be (these are rough guidelines)
M > 20 times the pot - Green zone, you are under no pressure from blinds and ante's
M = 10 - 20 times the pot - Yellow zone, blinds catching up, need to make a few moves and be aggressive to get back into green zone.
M = 6 - 10 times the pot - Orange zone - Need to be aggressive and move back into green or yellow zone asap.
M = <6 times the pot - Red Zone - Get your money in asap
Hope this helps
To work M out you work out the pot and then see how many times it divides into your chip stack (EG blinds 100/200 with 25 ante at a 10 handed table) pot therefore is 550 before action, and say you have 11,000 in chips, your M is exactly 20.
Like BB's there a hands you shouldnt play with a small chip stack (EG sc's with less than 20 bb's)
A quick guideline to M would be (these are rough guidelines)
M > 20 times the pot - Green zone, you are under no pressure from blinds and ante's
M = 10 - 20 times the pot - Yellow zone, blinds catching up, need to make a few moves and be aggressive to get back into green zone.
M = 6 - 10 times the pot - Orange zone - Need to be aggressive and move back into green or yellow zone asap.
M = <6 times the pot - Red Zone - Get your money in asap
Hope this helps
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
This is exactly what I do - easiest way for me.
P
P0KerHoE69
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Thank you Ducky/ Dakota/Wiz as i am familar with HoH all volumes ,and have been playing for recreation from 2004-2006. I then began to look more into poker from 2007-2010 and binked a sunday tourney stars for $11,288 for 2nd place. That same week i won a live tourney in Biloxi MS for $7000 ect. Shortly after this i took a little time off because of my job working 12hr days. That really hurt my game and volume. I been tippy toeing ever since until recently. I decided to take poker very seriously at the start of this year; But i have actually found it very hard to find people to work with to advance my mtt game. I am a member of TPE and drag the Bar, but i am more of a forum and hands on player. I don't mind videos but i like to ask questions as soon as i am done viewing them. It's strange how i pay for a subscription at those sites; And can hardly get any replies in a timely manner. I am thinking about dropping one or both and just deal with real people who are willing to help me.
I consider myself as a level 5 thinking player, but it' hard to push the small edges as i want; Becuase i fear they are -ev plays that i consider to be +ev, and i may or may not be burning money. Also light three betting,and chip ev shoves are something i have to get a handle on as well. Once again i find myself not knowing exactly where im at in these spots; But i still attempt to act on them while not knowing if it is correct or not! I know in my heart that i am a very good mtt player waiting to happend, but i need help to advance the learning curve. I have no problem getting coaching, but i need to work with someone that i can also build a personal players bond with as well.
I have one 12th place finish this year from the wsop New Orleans event #6 6 max ring event; Which had 360 entrants. And had too cancel my Las Vegas trip for personal reasons for event #54 NL Hodem $1000 buy-in. I have variuos blogs ad others to motivate myself as well; And i have been looking to start a study group of some sort with another player who is a serious as myself, and somewhat better at picking spots ect. At least now i now to open shove my 10bb's adj!!!!!!
I consider myself as a level 5 thinking player, but it' hard to push the small edges as i want; Becuase i fear they are -ev plays that i consider to be +ev, and i may or may not be burning money. Also light three betting,and chip ev shoves are something i have to get a handle on as well. Once again i find myself not knowing exactly where im at in these spots; But i still attempt to act on them while not knowing if it is correct or not! I know in my heart that i am a very good mtt player waiting to happend, but i need help to advance the learning curve. I have no problem getting coaching, but i need to work with someone that i can also build a personal players bond with as well.
I have one 12th place finish this year from the wsop New Orleans event #6 6 max ring event; Which had 360 entrants. And had too cancel my Las Vegas trip for personal reasons for event #54 NL Hodem $1000 buy-in. I have variuos blogs ad others to motivate myself as well; And i have been looking to start a study group of some sort with another player who is a serious as myself, and somewhat better at picking spots ect. At least now i now to open shove my 10bb's adj!!!!!!
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W
WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
If you want to build some sort of bond, i wouldn't suggest paying for coaching. Most don't really care and will never help you outside of what you are paying them for.
You could try some sort of pay as you go, or profit share coaching. That way the coach has invested interests in you performing well, but the downside obviously is that it's long term, usually volume orientated and you have to fork out a lot of your winnings.
In regards to the fear of making incorrect decisions. Look into getting some sort of review system working. Like, if you use HEM or PT you can "mark" hands for future review. That way, you can just make the move you think is correct but still unsure about, then review it after you play, instead of worrying about it in the game.
Experiment with what works for you, but when i played STT's a while back, i would always review the hands/games i played from the day before. That way i was in a good minset for poker when i loaded games for that day, kind of kickstarting my brain.
Anyways, best of luck.
You might want to PM Pascal or duggs. pretty sure they would be happy to add you to skype and talk about hands. I know pascal enjoys babbling on skype quite a bit. (usually me babbling :/ )
You could try some sort of pay as you go, or profit share coaching. That way the coach has invested interests in you performing well, but the downside obviously is that it's long term, usually volume orientated and you have to fork out a lot of your winnings.
In regards to the fear of making incorrect decisions. Look into getting some sort of review system working. Like, if you use HEM or PT you can "mark" hands for future review. That way, you can just make the move you think is correct but still unsure about, then review it after you play, instead of worrying about it in the game.
Experiment with what works for you, but when i played STT's a while back, i would always review the hands/games i played from the day before. That way i was in a good minset for poker when i loaded games for that day, kind of kickstarting my brain.
Anyways, best of luck.
You might want to PM Pascal or duggs. pretty sure they would be happy to add you to skype and talk about hands. I know pascal enjoys babbling on skype quite a bit
. (usually me babbling :/ )
P
P0KerHoE69
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Lately i have been toying around with pre-flop stack % inputs when opening or light 3-betting in mtt's. It's actually a little experiment of mines, that all you guys probobly aready have a good handle on anyway? Basicly i have been working on using my adjusted ante along with (m) to keep tabs on my mtt progress during each stage of mtt's. Also i am in the works of really working on +chip ev shoves as well.
And one of the hardest for me, is getting away from my hand when someone shoves (who is pot commited) and not being able to fold 2nd best even though i think im ahead and not committed to call or shove! I actually read a nice article here about learning to pace yourselves in mtt's; And breaking them down into steps to make the final table. I really learned alot about my game after applying this method; And to be honest i really had no disipline up too this point! "Well i thought i had some but i didn't" LOL........
The questions i have are very general,but should help me as i continue to learn. My first queston?
1. What % of my stack should i be willing to invest pre when light 3 betting. Please include min% and max%
2. What % of my stack when light 4 betting? min% max%
3. Min % when open raising? Max % when open raising?
please note**** We are not concerned with 3 or 4 bet jams! Only doing so with stacks that we can raise fold. So in these examples i would consider us to have stacks sizes that fall into this catergory!
Now i would like to get some info on the stacks that we are 3 betting or opening against, along with position and what % of thier stack we should be raising in order to apply enough pressure to aviod marginal calls. For example= Most players that i see open for 15-20% of their stack pre-flop, and fold to a 3 bet two times or more! I consider these players as weak and loose. For the most part it seems very spewy from what i have seen.
Lastly i would like to know what % of the villans stack do you prefer to bet to apply max pressure pre flop. Just a general answer will do! For example i like to apply as much pressure as my stack allows me.
So if i have a 5000 chips stack and villan has 3500 in chips. Opening 11% of our stack to 595 pre is close to 17% of his stack; So villan will need to invest. At least 42% of his stack or more to 3 bet us to (2.5x)or1250 chips(min) Into our stack of 4405 chips behind.This equals 27.9%(min) of our chips to call his 3 bet leaving us with 3750 chips behind if we decided to call and not shove! This would give us 15% more to call preflop a total of 25% or 1845 of our chips total invested,before we even see a flop!
So obv in this example if we 4 bet jam preflop we are going to get called here nearly 70%(est.) of the time at best as the villan only has around 1750 in chips; And a pot of 2500 if we decide to call. And even more incentive if we 5 bet jam. So 595(my open)+1250(villans 2.5 3 bet)=1845+655(to call villans 3bet)=2500 post flop. This represents 147%+ of the villans stack when we flat call! and some how we decide to fold to his jam post of 1750! 3750-1750=2000 chips left when we call post flop and lose. 17%(villans stack) seems like a good number here to find a fold button if villans 3bets? And only costing us 11% to open/fold as calling would be very bad in this example 25%!
And one of the hardest for me, is getting away from my hand when someone shoves (who is pot commited) and not being able to fold 2nd best even though i think im ahead and not committed to call or shove! I actually read a nice article here about learning to pace yourselves in mtt's; And breaking them down into steps to make the final table. I really learned alot about my game after applying this method; And to be honest i really had no disipline up too this point! "Well i thought i had some but i didn't" LOL........
The questions i have are very general,but should help me as i continue to learn. My first queston?
1. What % of my stack should i be willing to invest pre when light 3 betting. Please include min% and max%
2. What % of my stack when light 4 betting? min% max%
3. Min % when open raising? Max % when open raising?
please note**** We are not concerned with 3 or 4 bet jams! Only doing so with stacks that we can raise fold. So in these examples i would consider us to have stacks sizes that fall into this catergory!
Now i would like to get some info on the stacks that we are 3 betting or opening against, along with position and what % of thier stack we should be raising in order to apply enough pressure to aviod marginal calls. For example= Most players that i see open for 15-20% of their stack pre-flop, and fold to a 3 bet two times or more! I consider these players as weak and loose. For the most part it seems very spewy from what i have seen.
Lastly i would like to know what % of the villans stack do you prefer to bet to apply max pressure pre flop. Just a general answer will do! For example i like to apply as much pressure as my stack allows me.
So if i have a 5000 chips stack and villan has 3500 in chips. Opening 11% of our stack to 595 pre is close to 17% of his stack; So villan will need to invest. At least 42% of his stack or more to 3 bet us to (2.5x)or1250 chips(min) Into our stack of 4405 chips behind.This equals 27.9%(min) of our chips to call his 3 bet leaving us with 3750 chips behind if we decided to call and not shove! This would give us 15% more to call preflop a total of 25% or 1845 of our chips total invested,before we even see a flop!
So obv in this example if we 4 bet jam preflop we are going to get called here nearly 70%(est.) of the time at best as the villan only has around 1750 in chips; And a pot of 2500 if we decide to call. And even more incentive if we 5 bet jam. So 595(my open)+1250(villans 2.5 3 bet)=1845+655(to call villans 3bet)=2500 post flop. This represents 147%+ of the villans stack when we flat call! and some how we decide to fold to his jam post of 1750! 3750-1750=2000 chips left when we call post flop and lose. 17%(villans stack) seems like a good number here to find a fold button if villans 3bets? And only costing us 11% to open/fold as calling would be very bad in this example 25%!
W
WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
It's really kind of a waste of time imo to try and set guidelines for certain stack plays. It really just comes down to common sense.
I tend to think about this game in the simplest way possible. So my thoughts would be something along the lines of
If i 4bet here and fail, will the stack remaining be workable? Do i need these chips now or in the future? etc etc.
You can of course work out pot ratios and such, like what stack size we can 3bet and then jam flops with etc, but putting a % on it seems like a bit of a waste of time.
Put it this way, how often in a MTT online do you have a stack you are able to 4bet and fold and be happy about it?
Having said all this, i'm really only a STT player, so hopefully some MTT players who still play the game can comment if i'm incorrect.
I tend to think about this game in the simplest way possible. So my thoughts would be something along the lines of
If i 4bet here and fail, will the stack remaining be workable? Do i need these chips now or in the future? etc etc.
You can of course work out pot ratios and such, like what stack size we can 3bet and then jam flops with etc, but putting a % on it seems like a bit of a waste of time.
Put it this way, how often in a MTT online do you have a stack you are able to 4bet and fold and be happy about it?
Having said all this, i'm really only a STT player, so hopefully some MTT players who still play the game can comment if i'm incorrect.