Another tough one.

steveiam

steveiam

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Was playing a live to tourney at a new poker club in Kingston,London....£1000 GTD £40 buyin but only 12 runners, so top 3 got paid, Got down to the last 5 and i was the chip leader with 140k had KsQs in the BB and UTG shoves with 70k..(he was 3rd in chips and was quite a loose player and was raising a lot with marginal hands) everybody else folded.Blinds are 2k 4k...What do i do ?
 
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deedbr

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Fold. Fold. Fold. Even two randoms cards aren't going to be that far behind KQs. Even if his entire range of hands came out to be a coin flip why risk it on a call.

Save those chips for being an aggressive raiser. Especially at those blind levels you still have some time to play your game.
 
vinylspiros

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Fold. Fold. Fold. Even two randoms cards aren't going to be that far behind KQs. Even if his entire range of hands came out to be a coin flip why risk it on a call.

Save those chips for being an aggressive raiser. Especially at those blind levels you still have some time to play your game.
+1^^
 
S3mper

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I would agree fold it and fold it twice, no need to risk those chips in that spot calling. Use them to put your opponents to decisions instead of winning coin flips at best... What did you do? How did you do?
 
vinylspiros

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I would agree fold it and fold it twice, no need to risk those chips in that spot calling. Use them to put your opponents to decisions instead of winning coin flips at best... What did you do? How did you do?
im guessing that since he posted the situation here, that it didnt go as expected. hope im wrong here.
 
S3mper

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im guessing that since he posted the situation here, that it didnt go as expected. hope im wrong here.

I hope your wrong as well, however just cause he posted the Q here doesn't mean he didn't do well. By asking even after a 1st place win he will learn something or have what he thought was the right move clarified... (used clarified cause I couldn't think of the word I wanted to use)

Just because you do something and win doesn't mean it was the right move, Just because you do something and lose doesn't mean it was the wrong move.

<3
 
steveiam

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It was about 1am and we had been playing for about 5 hours when this hand came up. I knew i should have folded but the words call came out...Anyway he turned over JcJh, flop came qc6s8s, turn 2d only one card to avoid Jd.Guess what came on the river...He hits the one outer..Still about an hour later we chopped the pot 4 ways so it could have been worse. Sometimes fatigue can play a part in the decision making.
 
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deedbr

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Regardless of result the call is to loose in my opinion. Even a complete maniac can wake up to aces. If he plays Ace rag you are behind. There is a very small group of hands that you are going to dominate. The vast majority are going to be a lot closer to a coin flip.
 
IntenseHeat

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I couldn't have agreed more with deedbr's responses. I thought I had something to add to his first response, but now see that he has already come back and added it. What I was going to add was that even the worst player gets dealt good hands from time to time. Of course when they do, it's hard not to pay them off because of all the all the weak hands we've seen them play badly.

I find it's not uncommon to make the call with the best starting hand, only to see it lose when the other guy ends up making two crappy pair. There is some satisfaction in knowing that our read was good, but not nearly enough. So when it comes to situations like this where I would be risking a large amount of chips to call someone's pre-flop shove, I remind myself that not only might I already be behind, but even if I'm ahead, there is always the possibility of being outflopped. What I tell myself is that I simply don't have to. That is, I haven't invested a single chip into the pot yet, and I don't have to.

Remember, with the chip lead, you have the choice of whether to be aggressive, or the option of being patient and waiting for monster hands. Calling a pre-flop all-in for half your stack with K-Q is neither.
 
Poker Orifice

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The advantage of weilding a large stack nearing bubble situation while others are sitting on 15-20bb's is a huge advantage (far outweighing calling it off with KQ in a spot like this). We can keep picking away at them, folding when they occassionally take a stand & fight back (& hopefully they do so at the wrong time).
 
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marcumx

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i would have folded as well..glad u got a chop though. we always do a chop at the casino in their tourneys
 
hobonc

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No one has mentioned that it was UTG who shoved. You're less apt to AI shove with mediocre cards from that position. Even considering there was only 5 players. The only way I call here is extreme desperation. Not that it matters that much on the hand but unless there was a J folded somewhere then he hit the two outer.
 
IntenseHeat

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No one has mentioned that it was UTG who shoved. You're less apt to AI shove with mediocre cards from that position. Even considering there was only 5 players. The only way I call here is extreme desperation. Not that it matters that much on the hand but unless there was a J folded somewhere then he hit the two outer.

I didn't address this part because I feel like I've been hammering on it alot lately. And maybe by warning more people against it, I'm actually spreading the idea to more people who never thought of it and thus promoting it. To me a UTG raise doesn't necessarily make this an auto fold for me. I have noticed more and more players raising light and shoving from UTG because they know that they will be given credit for having a strong hand. It seems to be the new blind stealing strategy and is becoming as prevalent as trying to steal the blinds from the hijack, cutoff or button. You have to get past more players, but that doesn't seem so hard, especially at a tight table or approaching the bubble when everyone tightens up anyway. I'm surprised that more players haven't noticed this. I can't be the only player who is actually paying attention. Or maybe it's just because I'm such a huge skeptic. That still doesn't make this a call, given the situation and size of the bet. As I said earlier, you could be right and still get outdrawn.
 
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steveiam

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I think if you look at this hand in isolation then the fold would always be the right action.But after playing with the same people for 5 hours and your reads on how the game was going then sometimes you have to go with your instinct rather than the maths.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Yeah calling in this spot is bad. At best, your not much better than a flip. With that in mind, given you have chip lead, it's going to be by far more profitable stealing rather than calling when you have the chip lead. You don't want to lose your ability to run over table over by making very marginal calls. You want to keep bubble alive and bully the other medium stacks who likely will want to wait for the aggro player to bust first before committing. You will pick up by far more chips by stealing with a big stack rather than making bad calls and your not in a postion where u need to gamble.
 
tracyrickrobby

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i have to agree, i would fold there!! but steven does have a good point, if u have a good read on the player i might call there!! really depends on the player shoving!! tricky situation!!!
 
S3mper

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i have to agree, i would fold there!! but steven does have a good point, if u have a good read on the player i might call there!! really depends on the player shoving!! tricky situation!!!

I don't think you should call even if you have the best read in the world on some one.... If you read them weak with KQ they could have pocket 2's and feel weak but there still a coin flip/ small favorite also this player could have 7-2 off make this play you read them weak and your only a 2 to 1 favorite either case weak or strong there are better spots to put your money in big stacked
 
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makaay1

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IMO i think you should fold. Even if he has A6 or something ccrazy like that, he is in an advantage, and even worse hands can win on a coin flip. i wouldnt risk my tournament life on a coin flip so just fold the hand and win the tourney afterwards
 
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