Am I losing it, or was this hand ridiculous?

Hi all
I am normally a lurker on here but thought I would post as the most ridiculous thing happened last night. I have pasted the link to the hand in question below.
http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/view.php/id/3342606
I was probably taking a chance going all in as those in front of me could have had A's but we were late into the tourney, blinds were big, I was expecting ppl to just play the best hands.
Needless to say, I didn't cash in this tourney as I was so mad and the same player who won here beat me a few hands later with TT (I had KQc). I've had bad beats, but this was just beyond ridiculous. I have even emailed pokerstars to investigate this player and another at the table, and they were both going all-in with nothing.
Do you think he was just lucky? To go all in with those cards in early position was just, I don't know, bizarre to say the least.
Pam

Just think that you will win most times with that hand. If he wants to play it that way, fine, in the long run you'll come out on top. If there were no hands like this, there would be no poker.

My 0.02

Yep, this is true. Thing is I did check his stats on OPR and he is at 96%, plus it looks like he actually won that tourney!

I'm not sure what you think your opponent did wrong. He was short stacked and shoved before anyone else had acted. Sure, he ran into your Q's, which would have ended his tourney 87% of the time. Clearly catching trips was unlucky for you, but I wouldn't call this anything like "the most ridiculous thing". It's happened to all of us; at least you had some chips left after the bad beat.

Villain did nothing wrong. You have to bear in mind, he has 4 big blinds left AND the blind is hitting him the very next hand leaving him crippled. He would be the big blind next, with most likely an even worse hand, he's getting good odds and a big pot if he wins it. If he folds here, he has 1200 on the next hand and then the following hand less than 1k with ZERO fold equity left near enough. He has to pretty much shove any two at this point, it's very standard play. What would you like, someone to blind out of the tournament?

It's isn't the most ridiculous thing ever either, it's quite normal and a LOT worse things happen.

lol @ you emailing pokerstars, are you for REAL? Investigate what exactly? He beat you in a hand? Are you for real?

I think you really need to look in to poker a bit more.

On a side note, you say "maybe you was wrong to shove your queens" Definitely NOT, this is shoving all day at this point even if faced with a shoved, you have around 10bb's left yourself so it's easy to call or shove on. You should be shoving wider at this point anyway, Any Ace in postion, any two pictures and so on.

I'm thinking of a word. It begins with "S" and ends in "tandard".

UL though, nh.

ramdeebam, i have only just recently got my head around odds, but what you said about fold equity I am a bit basic on (so thanks for explaining!). But, if it was me, the blinds yes were close, but there were enough chips to go past the blinds, meaning a possible 8 hands or so to be seen. Wouldn't it be more likely, in those upcoming 8 hands, to hit an A or K, or connected cards, or suited etc. Am I wrong to think I wouldn't want to chance my tournament on J7?

pamrleader said:

ramdeebam, i have only just recently got my head around odds, but what you said about fold equity I am a bit basic on (so thanks for explaining!). But, if it was me, the blinds yes were close, but there were enough chips to go past the blinds, meaning a possible 8 hands or so to be seen. Wouldn't it be more likely, in those upcoming 8 hands, to hit an A or K, or connected cards, or suited etc. Am I wrong to think I wouldn't want to chance my tournament on J7?

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Yeah but you have to remember with the dead money in there ($25 antes) with blinds the pot is already $800. If he waits and passes through the BB and SB - the antes this leaves him with say $1135 in chips. Also, the blinds might well go up within the space of time to the next level meaning he has even less equity. Even if the blinds stay at the current 200/400 and IF it gets folded around to him on the next few hands, he is sat with $1135 in chips,

The pot will be 765 already in dead money. So, now say he shoves in to any of the two blinds who have $4000 in chips. They will be getting EVEN money on any hand to call, so any suited connectors, pairs any Ace, Any King will most likely be snap called as his range will be so so wide. The chances are the blinds will have gone up though by the time it gets back round to him, I assume it's turbo? So blinds go up another level meaning people will be getting amazing odds to call any two cards at this point.

As for waiting, I don't think he can wait any longer - leaving yourself with 2.5big blinds is the worse thing you can do. I'd rather shove any two and I think his shove is fine, if everyone folds, he gains another 50% to his stack, if someone calls, like you did and you had him dominated and was just unlucky, but if someone does call with say A,Q/A,10/Ax or whatever and he doubles through, he's gone from short stack to one of the chip leaders and he's not a massive underdog to any higher two cards. He has a "little" fold equity left at this point, if he passes the blinds, people will be calling and yes I'd of shoved for my tournament life here, I'd of probably shoved earlier than this too but I'm guessing there was action in other hands so he had to fold?

I have even emailed Pokerstars to investigate this player and another at the table, and they were both going all-in with nothing.

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Wtf, do you email pokerstars whenever you lose a hand? People are allowed to play however they want whether you like it or not. If they want to go all-in every hand then they can do so.

Yeh I think so.
So basically, at this point in the tourney it is more about the odds and fold equity than the actual cards? Makes sense, it tends to be near the bubble that I will lose as I will not just shove with any two, I tend to wait for something better to come along.
Although saying that, I have been in a game where I am short stacked and waited for the best hand possible before shoving and because, as you say, ppl are getting good odds at this stage, I will definitely get called. Often who ever has called me has a weak hand, and so I win and double up. This happens again and next thing you know I am chip leader!
Is it a judgement call? I guess so, although my success in cashing in tournaments and dropped dramatically recently.

Wow, are u serious? This is standard, I've pushed with much worst. He was just making a play and it worked out well for him. Wait until you are a 95% favorite and someone hits runner, runner on you.

OP ill give you some examples of real beats, it might make you feel better about the QQ. In the 1st hand the guy had a 1% chance of a split on the turn. The 2nd is my favourite 4% chance on the flop.

The most important thing you need to realise is that these beats will happen and there is nothing you can do about it. Be happy that you got your money in as favourite whatever cards come after is out of your control.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
Hero (Button) ($2.94)
SB ($6.01)
BB ($2.38)
UTG ($1.02)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 7 , A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.06, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold
Flop: ($0.14) A , 7 , 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.10, SB raises $0.34, Hero raises $0.80, SB calls $0.56
Turn: ($1.94) K (2 players)
SB bets $1.32, Hero raises $1.98 (All-In), SB calls $0.66
River: ($5.90) A (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $5.90
Results:
Hero had 7 , A (full house, Aces over sevens).
SB had J , A (full house, Aces over sevens).
Outcome: SB won $2.81


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
SB ($5.32)
Hero (BB) ($9.87)
UTG ($13.57)
MP ($12.64)
CO ($12.42)
Button ($16.12)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , 9
3 folds, Button bets $0.20, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15
Flop: ($0.42) 7 , A , 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.80, Hero raises $2.85, Button raises $8.15, Hero raises $6.82 (All-In), Button calls $0.72
Turn: ($19.76) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($19.76) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $19.76
Results:
Button had 10 , 4 (three of a kind, tens).
Hero had A , 9 (two pair, Aces and tens).
Outcome: Button won $18.78

pamrleader said:

Yeh I think so.
So basically, at this point in the tourney it is more about the odds and fold equity than the actual cards? Makes sense, it tends to be near the bubble that I will lose as I will not just shove with any two, I tend to wait for something better to come along.
Although saying that, I have been in a game where I am short stacked and waited for the best hand possible before shoving and because, as you say, ppl are getting good odds at this stage, I will definitely get called. Often who ever has called me has a weak hand, and so I win and double up. This happens again and next thing you know I am chip leader!
Is it a judgement call? I guess so, although my success in cashing in tournaments and dropped dramatically recently.

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It's all about putting pressure on players, like yourself who tend to be a bubble boy and be scared to shove, maybe try limping in the money? Your right, sometimes you will come up with aces when short stacked, get called and double up but more times than not you will lose more in the long run playing like that.

You will find being more aggressive and not worrying about busting on the bubble to be much more effective than sitting around getting blinded out.

You will find, some larger or even medium stacks who get in a good postion on you, literally shove in to you every hand because they have this image that you wont call without the nuts so each time they do they are picking up a bunch of chips. By the way you pick something up, you're that short stacked, you either get sucked out on or double up, more often than not though you won't pick up a hand and end up having to shove anyway with a worse hand than your marginal hands you should be shoving previously and still busting.

Thanks Ram, I'll definitely try to change my approach. I have got more aggressive recently but nothing much seems to be going my way and I'm nearly on a constant losing streak.
Sean, that 2nd hand is laughable. I would have been spitting blood lol! Is it cos it was a micro stake game and he was just playing anything to get lucky? I guess so because clearly playing solid poker in that situation is just pointless.

pamrleader said:

Is it cos it was a micro stake game and he was just playing anything to get lucky?

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You have to realise that many people who play poker just play for fun or just like to have a gamble. Many players will not realise that they are making bad decisions or simply dont care. That is good for us though as these are players who we can win money from. Sometimes they will get lucky but thats ok. If these players never got lucky every once in a while they would likely not continue playing the game, that would be bad for me as I wouldnt make any money

pamrleader said:

Hi all
I am normally a lurker on here but thought I would post as the most ridiculous thing happened last night. I have pasted the link to the hand in question below.
http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/view.php/id/3342606
I was probably taking a chance going all in as those in front of me could have had A's but we were late into the tourney, blinds were big, I was expecting ppl to just play the best hands.
Needless to say, I didn't cash in this tourney as I was so mad and the same player who won here beat me a few hands later with TT (I had KQc). I've had bad beats, but this was just beyond ridiculous. I have even emailed Pokerstars to investigate this player and another at the table, and they were both going all-in with nothing.
Do you think he was just lucky? To go all in with those cards in early position was just, I don't know, bizarre to say the least.
Pam

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3 Questions For you? 1 how Do I get my Hands Converted to Video Format on that Site? Cuz I can't Figure out how to use it, I swear

2nd Questions Is What Stakes was this Tourney At? .10cent? $1, Free Roll? Exactly What?

3rd Question, why Would you email Stars to Investigate this Player ? What exactly would you be Implying/Accusing stars Of? I mean Bad Beats Happen, There's no way around them , Bad Players Also Happen, and there's no way around them also (Except to BREAK THEM )...Dumb People Play, That's why there's alot of players in this game, that love playing with Dumb People ...So be happy about there play, and you'll get them next time

I got my hand history from PS and pasted into the website. It was pretty straightforward so I found.
The tourney was 45-ppl, $10.
Lol, I have calmed down since this all began, but basically there was a 2nd player on the table and the way they both played seemed like they were in sync with eachother. It wasn't only that though, I had an email from them recently where I was on a table with two cheaters and they were investigated etc. I thought this might have been the same thing or that there might be newer advance software that helps cheaters. To be honest I don't know what is available and what programs ppl can create.
I know it was just a bad beat but the way they both played before and after this happened, it just looked like they might be "playing" the table together. PS emailed me back and they couldn't find any evidence, so fair enough. I realise I exagerrated the situation but as this has happened on PS a few times, I thought it might have happened again!

Well I'm not going to hound you too much about your OP and emailing PS and all but I will say this: I don't know how long you have being playing poker but just to let you know this is a common play in poker, it happens all the time and there is nothing fishy about. I mean I may would call it a donk move but it's normal. Play any tourney at this stake and it can happen to you at any given moment. Now once you get to higher stakes this becomes a lesser play at the table, but at the same time there are some rich "donks" out there too and you may still see this play. So don't let this play bother you, stay focused and play on! GL

pamrleader said:

I got my hand history from PS and pasted into the website. It was pretty straightforward so I found.
The tourney was 45-ppl, $10.
Lol, I have calmed down since this all began, but basically there was a 2nd player on the table and the way they both played seemed like they were in sync with eachother. It wasn't only that though, I had an email from them recently where I was on a table with two cheaters and they were investigated etc. I thought this might have been the same thing or that there might be newer advance software that helps cheaters. To be honest I don't know what is available and what programs ppl can create.
I know it was just a bad beat but the way they both played before and after this happened, it just looked like they might be "playing" the table together. PS emailed me back and they couldn't find any evidence, so fair enough. I realise I exagerrated the situation but as this has happened on PS a few times, I thought it might have happened again!

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First off - you are new to poker. I don't think playing $10.00 is a good idea. What is your bankroll? People here($10.00 games) "usually" understand the basics of poker, equity and so on. They understand (like the shover) when to shove/fold etcetc. I think you should start at the lowest limits in all honesty or you will be throwing money away until you learn about ICM and more.

As for the cheating - I think you're reading far to much into it. You have to realize (Epically higher stakes) people like I say understand how to play them and they are shoving when it's +EV. People shoving all the time with crap hands doesn't mean they are cheating, pokerstars is most likely the saftest and best site for detecting cheats but it has nothing to do with if they can read your cards or know whats coming out. That's just impossible. A cheat usually has a bot that's programmed to make +EV moves and calls/raises based on how many people are at the table, ICM and odds.

Please don't tell me you think he shoved J,7 of suited because he knew he was going to hit trip sevens? That is just ludicrous if that was the case and he would win 100% of the time if he wanted too. You could quite easily turn a $1.00 BR into several million within weeks just using 1 buy-in rule and winning every tournament.

yea that's a pretty shitty outcome but the guy had less than 5BB left, he just picked that spot to shove (not saying it was the right move on his part, but he might have just figured **** it at that point) and you had no choice but to call...highly unfortunate but just one of those hands where you gotta try and make sure it doesnt affect ur play afterwards

NEWTDOG101 said:

Well I'm not going to hound you too much about your OP and emailing PS and all but I will say this: I don't know how long you have being playing poker but just to let you know this is a common play in poker, it happens all the time and there is nothing fishy about. I mean I may would call it a donk move but it's normal. Play any tourney at this stake and it can happen to you at any given moment. Now once you get to higher stakes this becomes a lesser play at the table, but at the same time there are some rich "donks" out there too and you may still see this play. So don't let this play bother you, stay focused and play on! GL

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I hate to disagree with a teammate , but I don't seen anything "donkish" in the move he made. With about 1800 in chips, he shoved all in hoping to collect the 800 already in the pot. I'm sure he didn't want to get called there, because he would have surely been behind, perhaps dominated by anyone willing to do so.

Barring some unusual aggression at the table or telling history from the villain, I would suspect that the only player likely to call without a premium hand might be the player in the big blind, who then only needs to risk 1400 more with the chance to win the 2600 in the pot after the shove and no one else left to act. Even if he were to call and lose under that scenario, he's still the table chip leader, so his range is likely to be much greater than the others.

Obviously QQ is not a hand to fold there, and in fact I love the all in there to keep the bb from playing the hand as well - wouldn't want to play post-flop if an A or K appears on the board.

To the villain's credit, waiting for an A or pocket pair might result in a stack too light to expect even a marginal hand to fold. Plus, a weak A or small pair isn't going to be much of a favorite, and could easily be a heavy dog, playing for a pot that might not even increase our tournament equity that much with a dwindling stack.

ckingriches said:

I hate to disagree with a teammate , but I don't seen anything "donkish" in the move he made. With about 1800 in chips, he shoved all in hoping to collect the 800 already in the pot. I'm sure he didn't want to get called there, because he would have surely been behind, perhaps dominated by anyone willing to do so.

Barring some unusual aggression at the table or telling history from the villain, I would suspect that the only player likely to call without a premium hand might be the player in the big blind, who then only needs to risk 1400 more with the chance to win the 2600 in the pot after the shove and no one else left to act. Even if he were to call and lose under that scenario, he's still the table chip leader, so his range is likely to be much greater than the others.

Obviously QQ is not a hand to fold there, and in fact I love the all in there to keep the bb from playing the hand as well - wouldn't want to play post-flop if an A or K appears on the board.

To the villain's credit, waiting for an A or pocket pair might result in a stack too light to expect even a marginal hand to fold. Plus, a weak A or small pair isn't going to be much of a favorite, and could easily be a heavy dog, playing for a pot that might not even increase our tournament equity that much with a dwindling stack.

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Lol it's cool Teammate, no hard feeling!!! I can totally see your point here and your statement is true. Hey it's no different than me shoving 58 off suit and hitting trip 8s! Hey but I only hit that move once a month lol.

NEWTDOG101 said:

Lol it's cool Teammate, no hard feeling!!! I can totally see your point here and your statement is true. Hey it's no different than me shoving 58 off suit and hitting trip 8s! Hey but I only hit that move once a month lol.

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I think I tried that move with J-7 from the small blind last week and actually flopped a straight to double up. Sure, it's a little embarrasing to turn over the junk when it's called, and almost as embarrasing when you double up, however infrequently it happens. But we've all been on both sides of the scenario - maybe that's why I sometimes apologize when I'm the benefactor.

pretty normal if they grab a piece from the flop, i always prepare myself/

if he got runner runner trips then that would be sick lol.,

Some of these are hard to believe. They occur pretty frequently. But what goes around comes around. You will money sometimes when you really do not deserve to also. So things even out once in a while.