Always get Middle to Big stack then lose it all

RED137

RED137

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I'm new so I hope this is the right place for this post.

During Tournaments I'm able to build my stack up from 1,500 to 9,000 - 10,000. I play TAG so I have good hands, that's how I'm able to build my stack. But when I get in the bubble I get called all in and lose. I have AsQs and the flip is 10s Qd 4s and I go all in and get called with a 67os. The turn brings a 9h, so I think I'm good until the turn which I an 8h. So I just wait until the bubble pops to start playing my hands again? I hope I'm making since lol.
 
Nazar Fedyk

Nazar Fedyk

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The main mistake here that you go all-in)
It is a case only if you left with <5-10 bb near the bubble and ante will break you very fast, but with middle stacks you don't need to take such a risk by pushing all chips
 
RED137

RED137

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The main mistake here that you go all-in)
It is a case only if you left with <5-10 bb near the bubble and ante will break you very fast, but with middle stacks you don't need to take such a risk by pushing all chips

So it was unwise on my part to push all-in. Ok, so should I just sit tight with my stack and just wait until then bubble pops, or should I still play but just tighter and only raise 3 to 5BB unless I have a made hand for sure, or at least 85% - 90% sure?
I really want to better my game so I can make to pass the bubble and to the final table. Only been there once and that was in a 10c SnG 60 man max.
 
Nazar Fedyk

Nazar Fedyk

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You have to raise 3-5 BB, because if your opponent has weak hand, he will most of times fold even to this raise, so no need to push all-in.
 
Nazar Fedyk

Nazar Fedyk

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Furthermore, people become more tight near the bubble because money zone is so close and no one will risk with trash hands, so value betting after flop and turn is very profitable during this period
 
endfrom

endfrom

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After the fifth level, players begin to play more cautious and strong hands, have the patience
 
RED137

RED137

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After the fifth level, players begin to play more cautious and strong hands, have the patience
This i understand, but why call me with 67os? But it was a Freeroll, I guess that make a difference in how others play cause it's not your actual money on the table, or am I wrong in thinking that way?
 
tbdbitl

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This i understand, but why call me with 67os? But it was a Freeroll, I guess that make a difference in how others play cause it's not your actual money on the table, or am I wrong in thinking that way?



I can't explain the 67os. But, I can explain that when connected and on draws, depending on my mood, I will make moves in freerolls, I just won't do normally.

Sometimes you cannot explain others actions. To me your bets should always be related to pot size. Jamming 100BB into a 5BB pot is crazy. Even if proper bet sizes are followed, sometimes getting it all-in cannot be avoided on the turn. And then poker will be poker.

Whittling away at the other stacks once you reach a medium size stack may be more optimal than trying to knock out a player on every pot.
 
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leon_fush

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Well, why put on a bubble with an average steak))) Raise and see what the board will give and further on the circumstances You can safely sit out and wait for the prize, put up with such a hand intelligently with a short steak as the aponents will constantly attack the shorty trying to steal the blinds and will A good chance to live up to the prizes.
 
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Runeloko

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Poker is a game with a lot of surprises, even an AA isn't a secure win. That's why you gotta love Poker. :p
 
Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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Furthermore, people become more tight near the bubble because money zone is so close and no one will risk with trash hands, so value betting after flop and turn is very profitable during this period

Totally true. I don't start to play more tight on the bubble at all, because of this. The others do it for me and when someone suddenly becomes more aggressive, I know that I have to be careful.

This i understand, but why call me with 67os? But it was a Freeroll, I guess that make a difference in how others play cause it's not your actual money on the table, or am I wrong in thinking that way?
Yep, freerolls are a funny thing. People do the weirdest moves in them because they cannot lose anything, only winning. So they hope to get lucky.


About the fact that you steadily grow your stack and then lose it all, I wouldn't be to worried about that.
It is normal that, even though you grow slowly, you will be all in at a certain moment. The blinds are getting bigger too, so if you're starting with a stack of like 1500, with the blinds being 10-20, you will have a 75 BB stack. Usually the blinds will get bigger faster than you can follow with growing your stack, so at a certain moment you might have 20 000 chips in front of you, but with the blinds being 500-1000, you have only 20 BB left. So more chance of risking your complete stack once you get into a hand, by having a good hand, but the opponent has an even better hand, or what might more happen, just by being all in pre or post flop and being ahead with like 70%.
This means that after having that situation a few times, you might lose it one of the times.
 
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orangeroad81

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Patience Young One

You must learn positional advantages and the right board textures to make certain moves. All of the responses are correct. That type of playing will only do 1 thing: rapidly test your tolerance for variance. Lol!
 
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Jerry Kierl

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So it was unwise on my part to push all-in. Ok, so should I just sit tight with my stack and just wait until then bubble pops, or should I still play but just tighter and only raise 3 to 5BB unless I have a made hand for sure, or at least 85% - 90% sure?
I really want to better my game so I can make to pass the bubble and to the final table. Only been there once and that was in a 10c SnG 60 man max.

The aim is to get to the money. Get a little conservative until the bubble pops, then go back to playing a little more freely.
 
walluyo

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I'm new so I hope this is the right place for this post.

During Tournaments I'm able to build my stack up from 1,500 to 9,000 - 10,000. I play TAG so I have good hands, that's how I'm able to build my stack. But when I get in the bubble I get called all in and lose. I have AsQs and the flip is 10s Qd 4s and I go all in and get called with a 67os. The turn brings a 9h, so I think I'm good until the turn which I an 8h. So I just wait until the bubble pops to start playing my hands again? I hope I'm making since lol.
This kind of cards was happened to me view times, shove all in with AKs got beaten by 89s. This is called bad luck, just take it easy.
 
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TCashMoney19

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I'm new so I hope this is the right place for this post.

During Tournaments I'm able to build my stack up from 1,500 to 9,000 - 10,000. I play TAG so I have good hands, that's how I'm able to build my stack. But when I get in the bubble I get called all in and lose. I have AsQs and the flip is 10s Qd 4s and I go all in and get called with a 67os. The turn brings a 9h, so I think I'm good until the turn which I an 8h. So I just wait until the bubble pops to start playing my hands again? I hope I'm making since lol.

Have you studied ICM theory? If you're one of the top stacks, like you say, before the money you really don't want to be putting yourself in a position to lose all of your chips to a suckout. It's not that you did anything wrong necessarily, getting it all in with the best hand, but you want to make sure you play conservative poker and not to put your entire stack on the line against players who have you covered close to the bubble even when you have AA! If your goal in tournament poker is to make money, you have to make ridiculous folds sometimes to ensure that you see a profit at the end of it.

For example, I had KK in the BB in a 9-man SNG with 4 players left. I was 3rd place stack. Top three players get paid. The smallest stack jams UTG, the second place stack then rejams and then the biggest stack rejams over him. I could call here and potentially win all of the chips, as it's likely I have the best hand. But consider this - if, for whatever reason, the small stack gets lucky and wins the small side pot and one of the bigger stacks sucks out on me I WOULD BE KNOCKED OUT IN FOURTH PLACE, recieving no money. Even though this is highly unlikely, this is a perfect example of ICM theory. I should fold even aces here sometimes, if my goal is to make money, because if I fold I will make the money 100% of the time as someone will bust in the three way all in. However, if I call with AA four ways, I run the risk of potentially getting knocked out before the money some percentage of the time. Therefore, it is more $EV to fold here even though it would be cEV to call. I am making more money by folding here, even though I would make more chips by calling. If this is confusing, I understand because it confused me to. But it would really benefit you to look up ICM theory and when it is necessary for you to fold even very strong hands close to the money in tournaments or SnGs :)

Good luck!

~TCashMoney19
 
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marnburger

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Have you studied ICM theory? If you're one of the top stacks, like you say, before the money you really don't want to be putting yourself in a position to lose all of your chips to a suckout. It's not that you did anything wrong necessarily, getting it all in with the best hand, but you want to make sure you play conservative poker and not to put your entire stack on the line against players who have you covered close to the bubble even when you have AA! If your goal in tournament poker is to make money, you have to make ridiculous folds sometimes to ensure that you see a profit at the end of it.



For example, I had KK in the BB in a 9-man SNG with 4 players left. I was 3rd place stack. Top three players get paid. The smallest stack jams UTG, the second place stack then rejams and then the biggest stack rejams over him. I could call here and potentially win all of the chips, as it's likely I have the best hand. But consider this - if, for whatever reason, the small stack gets lucky and wins the small side pot and one of the bigger stacks sucks out on me I WOULD BE KNOCKED OUT IN FOURTH PLACE, recieving no money. Even though this is highly unlikely, this is a perfect example of ICM theory. I should fold even aces here sometimes, if my goal is to make money, because if I fold I will make the money 100% of the time as someone will bust in the three way all in. However, if I call with AA four ways, I run the risk of potentially getting knocked out before the money some percentage of the time. Therefore, it is more $EV to fold here even though it would be cEV to call. I am making more money by folding here, even though I would make more chips by calling. If this is confusing, I understand because it confused me to. But it would really benefit you to look up ICM theory and when it is necessary for you to fold even very strong hands close to the money in tournaments or SnGs :)



Good luck!



~TCashMoney19



+1 Great advice here. You pass up a positive EV play that can risk your tournament life to allow yourself to make many more positive EV plays later.
 
bujjhati

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I'm new so I hope this is the right place for this post.

During Tournaments I'm able to build my stack up from 1,500 to 9,000 - 10,000. I play TAG so I have good hands, that's how I'm able to build my stack. But when I get in the bubble I get called all in and lose. I have AsQs and the flip is 10s Qd 4s and I go all in and get called with a 67os. The turn brings a 9h, so I think I'm good until the turn which I an 8h. So I just wait until the bubble pops to start playing my hands again? I hope I'm making since lol.

Hey man, I have an advice for you, try to learn about ICM, it may seem complex at first but once you understand the concept of it you can understand better your flaws, after learning how it works try to practice it, it will massively improve your game at tournaments and your decisions when you are in difficult spots, like bubble, final table, etc, good luck man!
 
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I completely agree with the ICM advise, as someone who doesn't follow it as closely as he should and who has been tilted by being chip lead and getting in with aces and losing to nonsense, you should certainly be playing for $ev if that's what matters to you. One thing to keep in mind for freerolls is that even the tightest players will play marginal hands for fun.
 
TheNutz4You

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ICM is most important when on a final table and the pay jumps are huge. When you are on a money bubble you cannot pass up premium hands in hopes of making the cash unless a min cash is important to you. I play to win, if I had a big stack I am abusing smaller stacks at the bubble, if I have average stack I will play a LAG style, if I am really short then I am push/fold hoping to min cash, but will not fold a premium hand pre flop because of a min cash bubble.
 
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TCashMoney19

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ICM is most important when on a final table and the pay jumps are huge. When you are on a money bubble you cannot pass up premium hands in hopes of making the cash unless a min cash is important to you. I play to win, if I had a big stack I am abusing smaller stacks at the bubble, if I have average stack I will play a LAG style, if I am really short then I am push/fold hoping to min cash, but will not fold a premium hand pre flop because of a min cash bubble.



I think this is a good point as well, beyond the ICM theory. He's correct in saying that ICM mostly applies on final tables, as these are the biggest pay jumps and big mistakes can cost players big sums of money.

This all depends on your goals playing tournament poker imo. For SnGs, my strategy is to cash as consistently as possible so I will make big folds near the money bubble to ensure I see a profit. However, in big tournament MTTs I have the same mentality as TheNutz4You. I'm trying to stack up huge and make a deep run for the FT. Some players (successful ones as well) are just focused on turning a positive return on investment and will make nitty folds for small pay jumps relative to the FT in tournaments. Again, this all depends on your goals - either make as many payjumps as possible by making nitty folds and laydowns to ensure this, or be willing to put your stack at risk in sometimes marginal spots to build up a big stack to make a deep final table run. Your choice, and neither is awful!

But for me, I'll stick with my conservative SnG strategy and my aggressive MTT strategy :D
 
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Jordzking

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The trick is to stay active without going all-in when you have a good hand. You don't have to risk a bad beat and then lose all

Good luck !

Jordz_king
 
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