all in calls ahead saving you from busto

Hi all, pretty sure you guys have experienced the following :-
A player in early position shoves , i look at my hand and say yes i will call this guy down, however someone else calls ahead of me and i eventually decide to fold, and as it turns out i wwould've lost if I had called the original raiser , this has happened so many times that it made me wonder, sometimes there really is luck in poker ,

sometimes there to take into account the intuition that we have as players that even though we do not have time sitting with the same person at the table we learn to read the game to predict their hand or their possible hand

Yes this happens because of the gap concept - you need a better hand to call a raise than to open the pot yourself. Thia is because you have fold equity when raising that doesn't exist when calling.
When you see a raise and a call you can believe at least one of them has a hand and adjust your decision accordingly.
Good play.

Folding regularly just because there is one caller ahead of you when you had already decided to call the all in is a strange thought process. If you're folding because of chipstacks trying to make the money that's one thing.... But if you're hang was strong enough to call with one a second caller gives you some better call odds. You hands caller it strengthstrength s change much from one caller unless they reraise.

I guess you can call it strange, sometimes I'll have a marginal hand , small pocket pair or worse, also depends on the 1st all in table image; when I 1st decided to call ; my hand seemed strong enough for a heads up flip, but not a 3way or more, don't get me wrong , if I have a premium hand it's most likely going in, what i wanted to highlight was the luck element,
For example, let's say the 2nd all in caller had a worse hand than i did, but because more than one person in the pot + weakness of my hand i fold, the luck part is this 2nd caller, if he had simply folded his junk i most likely call initail raiser (mainly due his table image/previous history ) and i would have rightly lost; i was asking about this "luck" element and whether other players have experienced/noticed/any other on this ?

For example, i have JJ , initial raiser lets say has KhTh and 2nd caller has Ac9s , and I know my hand is strong vs the 1st guy, but 2nd caller has me covered and shoves, in my mind 2nd caller could have any K or A or Q in his hand which potentially beats me, i fold and perhaps 1st raiser wins by some flush etc , basically by luck, I would have still lost but got "saved" by 2nd caller , it has happened to me a lot, enough rather so i take notice and say "i had the hand but would've lost, thanks 2nd guy) , unless people think i just fold too easily ?

It not really about luck but the math of the game. Say I have pockets tens or jacks. I am happy yo call the all in as I am most likely in a flip and could be or have him dominated depending on his hand. As more players get involved my hand value goes down for every call. With 2 players in you may be against hand that improve with any A,K, or Q and on the flop alone you will have one of those cards or more. While I am not ever folding pocket aces Preflop even they become a less that 50/50 hand once enough players get involved. SO please don't think of this as the luck factor but the math of the game.

It happens a lot to me as well that someone will call and put me into the situation to have to fold and then I see I would have lost the hand to the original raiser. It does make me smile when it does happen and a little unhappy when I would have won.

ken nielson said:

It not really about luck but the math of the game. Say I have pockets tens or jacks. I am happy yo call the all in as I am most likely in a flip and could be or have him dominated depending on his hand. As more players get involved my hand value goes down for every call. With 2 players in you may be against hand that improve with any A,K, or Q and on the flop alone you will have one of those cards or more. While I am not ever folding pocket aces Preflop even they become a less that 50/50 hand once enough players get involved. SO please don't think of this as the luck factor but the math of the game.

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very nice advice, i am aware of the math element even though i haven't worked it out,
I'm saying the luck part is that the 2nd caller is in the pot at all, no math pr anything can predict that part , and because of this 2nd player being in the pot i decide to fold,
so that's why I say this 2nd player saved me incidentally, and my question is has anyone had or experienced or noticed this happening?
I appreciate everyone's comments as they have given me lots to this about in multiway pots etc ...

It also depends on the stack, when I have few chips, in these circumstances, I do not think twice if I have JJ.

as other people said before me, there is a matter of circumstances like stack sizes and opponent's tendencies, sometimes you can overcall a shove with AA and KK and sometimes you can sneak other weaker hands

king11682 said:

It also depends on the stack, when I have few chips, in these circumstances, I do not think twice if I have JJ.

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True story, when I'm short any Ax will do

ken nielson said:

It happens a lot to me as well that someone will call and put me into the situation to have to fold and then I see I would have lost the hand to the original raiser. It does make me smile when it does happen and a little unhappy when I would have won.

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Yes, happy when we would've lost & sad & full of promises of vengence when we would've won hahahahha

Sorin Iliescu said:

as other people said before me, there is a matter of circumstances like stack sizes and opponent's tendencies, sometimes you can overcall a shove with AA and KK and sometimes you can sneak other weaker hands

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Very true about stack size,

ninjareal said:

Hi all, pretty sure you guys have experienced the following :-
A player in early position shoves , i look at my hand and say yes i will call this guy down, however someone else calls ahead of me and i eventually decide to fold, and as it turns out i wwould've lost if I had called the original raiser , this has happened so many times that it made me wonder, sometimes there really is luck in poker ,

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I think there are more variables that need to be considered than the info that is provided. What stage in the tournament, or are we talking cash game? Do I have more or less than 10 big blinds to my stack? How big is my hand? How have the other players involved been playing? It's all situational and those questions have to be considered too.

Sometimes I will watch the other players on the table and make up a set of conditions to play them at their own game. That's always fun and rewarding when it works out.

TruvyDog said:

I think there are more variables that need to be considered than the info that is provided. What stage in the tournament, or are we talking cash game? Do I have more or less than 10 big blinds to my stack? How big is my hand? How have the other players involved been playing? It's all situational and those questions have to be considered too.

Sometimes I will watch the other players on the table and make up a set of conditions to play them at their own game. That's always fun and rewarding when it works out.

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You are right, i didn't give enough variables, however I'm not talking about luck as in the hands themselves but the luck of a player acting before me , the luck is that we can't predict how others players will act, and in the case where their action saves me is the "luck" element

There is a theory called "the implosion factor" which basically means that a lot of times in low buyin tourneys players will "dive on the bubble" for no reason- you often want to let these players ignore icm and "dive on the bubble".

TruvyDog said:

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Sometimes I will watch the other players on the table and make up a set of conditions to play them at their own game. That's always fun and rewarding when it works out.

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Yes , I like this a lot, "levels" so I hear? Too much fun doing this, and then some players watching simply don't understand why you & villian will be "going crazy" when in a hand,

ninjareal said:

For example, i have JJ , initial raiser lets say has KhTh and 2nd caller has Ac9s , and I know my hand is strong vs the 1st guy, but 2nd caller has me covered and shoves, in my mind 2nd caller could have any K or A or Q in his hand which potentially beats me, i fold and perhaps 1st raiser wins by some flush etc , basically by luck, I would have still lost but got "saved" by 2nd caller , it has happened to me a lot, enough rather so i take notice and say "i had the hand but would've lost, thanks 2nd guy) , unless people think i just fold too easily ?

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I think getting it in with JJ against KT and A9 would be ideal. Of course luck is always a factor but that’s part of the game. Poker can be cruel at times and our hands won’t win all the time. All we can do is make good reads and decisions off intuitive thought. Personally I’m happy to get the JJ in here and in many spots. Knowing the decision I made was correct goes a long way. We can’t be results oriented because that will negatively impact future decisions. All we can do is get our hand in good and hope it stays ahead. If your hand was good enough to call the original all in it still should be sufficient. Otherwise it’s likely it wasn’t good enough to call in the first place. Also, depending on table dynamics we can re-examine how we plan to play our hand. If that 2nd reshove has been playing no hands then it’s unlikely we should call there (in some situations )but player 2 can be splashing around in many pots with mediocre holdings and I can’t wait to get the JJ (or whatever) in. Depending on stack size winning the side pot may warrant a call no matter what if you think he’s calling light.

Some players like to go allin independent of their hands and stake, there are no correct way to put them in a apropriated hand, I try to call with premium hands, or when I am small stake I will play with a wide range, I lost a lot of times.

For example, I just paid an allin with AA and lost to 78o, generally after this I endup losing a little of my focus, and do some mistakes.

ninjareal said:

You are right, i didn't give enough variables, however I'm not talking about luck as in the hands themselves but the luck of a player acting before me , the luck is that we can't predict how others players will act, and in the case where their action saves me is the "luck" element

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Yea, you can't really predict luck. It's either with you or it's not. Run the same hand over and over and you may not have been saved, you could have had the worst starting hand and still win. Once those chips are in, it's all up to the cards.

ninjareal said:

Yes , I like this a lot, "levels" so I hear? Too much fun doing this, and then some players watching simply don't understand why you & villian will be "going crazy" when in a hand,

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Nice! My favorite is making a play on the aggressive raise every hand guy with absolutely nothing in my hand. Most of the time I don't even show when it works out. Strictly for my pleasure!! Lol. Cheers!

A lot of times I'll be more likely to call with multiple callers in front of me, depending on how the other calls impacted pot odds.

its TG said:

A lot of times I'll be more likely to call with multiple callers in front of me, depending on how the other calls impacted pot odds.

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Hi, that's an idea , high risk in my opinion, as more players means mathematically more chances for you to lose yes? Of course if you get lucky then will quadruple up or so

Luck is part of the game. But in Poker, we call it chances!!

You have to listen to your inner voice. In other words - intuition should tell the right decision.