Is AKs foldable here?

I was playing a $1.50 9 man STT on Stars, when I woke up with AKs at a very early stage in the tournament (blinds 10/20). I was in middle position, so I opened the pot to my standard 2.5x (t50), several ppl behind me folded, but one guy 3-bet to about 6x (t120), and a guy on the button called that raise. Since they both had position on me, I had reason to believe that their range was a bit wider than mine. With that in mind I 4-bet to about t360, and of course the villain pushed all-in, and a call followed by the guy on the button.

Now... Is it incorrect for me to call their shove and effectively go all-in pre flop with AK suited? Or should have I just folded?



Spoiler....
I call, the first guy shows AA, and the other guy shows KQs.

AA wins, me and the other guy bust out.

I think as it played out it's a tough fold. I would probably have called if just 1 player jammed on my 4 bet, but since 1 player 5bet jammed and another player called a 5bet jam for his tourney life, it pretty much narrows their hands down to premium hands.

I'd figure one of the players has me crushed with AA or KK and the other player likely has some of my outs with AK or possibly AQ.

Even if one player had JJ or QQ your equity goes WAAAAY down if the 3rd player has even 1 of your outs.

I think I would have flat called the 120 3bet, then re-evaluated on the flop.

(as a side note, I don't know what the heck that KQ was doing?)

missjacki said:

(as a side note, I don't know what the heck that KQ was doing?)

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He was playing like a $1.50 STTer. Read something about playing in position, trying to not fold the button. Level 1 is tough. Usually they have it or they are maniacs who go big or go home. Call the 3bet and hope to miss the flop. Still 1380 chips.

So let me get this straight, you had 1500 starting stack, raised to 50, other guy reraised to 120, and there's a flat-call. I would've just shoved to isolate the caller and at the same time, other than Aces or Kings, when players are capable of calling Anything QQ and below, Ax+, KQ+, I'm shoving. You put players on range of hands and this was 9-player $1.5 stt. AKs is not a fold here. As long as you're keeping within your bankroll management and you can fire up another one, I'm shoving and stacking off here. Only reason to fold is if you have lots of data and hands on that player who is an extreme nit, which I've had reads and folded AKs before but I had hold'em manager to help me with it. If you have no information about the player, just ship it.

First off I'm not one of those AK haters.

At any point in a tourney I'm folding with a raise and a reraise in front of my action. There are some situations (very rare) that I might shove over them but with the raise reraise ahead of you PLUS the call you have to dump it.

You're beat at least 90% of the time.

Randall McMurphy said:

He was playing like a $1.50 STTer. Read something about playing in position, trying to not fold the button. Level 1 is tough. Usually they have it or they are maniacs who go big or go home. Call the 3bet and hope to miss the flop. Still 1380 chips.

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the stakes don't matter if a move is dumb, it's dumb at any stakes, I don't care if it's a freeroll, a $1.50, $15.00 or $1,000 tourney. And whether you have the button or not, how can you think your KQs is good there?

I've done a bit of reading and nowhere have I read "try not to fold your button". I've read to play your button strong, and play a wider range from your button. That does not equate to not folding your button no matter what happens ahead you... and by the way, the power of the button is completely erased when everyone is all in preflop.

missjacki said:

the stakes don't matter if a move is dumb, it's dumb at any stakes, I don't care if it's a freeroll, a $1.50, $15.00 or $1,000 tourney. And whether you have the button or not, how can you think your KQs is good there?

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True a dumb move is a dumb move but the stakes definitely do affect decisions. Low stakes like 1.50 tourneys will A) have players that have the attitude of "It's only 1.50, lets go" when they would have folded if they paid 150. or B) have players completely ignorant to the fact that KQs is a bad play there. We all started somewhere and saw suited facecards and thought they were good. The likelihood of a player actually thinking it's good is much better the lower the stake.

OP- I'd probably have called his 120 raise but definitely folded his all in with another caller. I personally would have probably felt either beat or at least too many outs vs 2 other players for AK.

Ian the Fish said:

I was playing a $1.50 9 man STT on Stars, when I woke up with AKs at a very early stage in the tournament (blinds 10/20). I was in middle position, so I opened the pot to my standard 2.5x (t50), several ppl behind me folded, but one guy 3-bet to about 6x (t120), and a guy on the button called that raise. Since they both had position on me, I had reason to believe that their range was a bit wider than mine. With that in mind I 4-bet to about t360, and of course the villain pushed all-in, and a call followed by the guy on the button.

Now... Is it incorrect for me to call their shove and effectively go all-in pre flop with AK suited? Or should have I just folded?

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Once you 4-bet you have to call. In a 45 man I snap 4-bet call AKs off here but I think in STTs it's either a fold pre or call his 3-bet.

I agree with some of the other posters in here. Just call the 120 and then reevaluate on the flop.

missjacki said:

the stakes don't matter if a move is dumb, it's dumb at any stakes, I don't care if it's a freeroll, a $1.50, $15.00 or $1,000 tourney. And whether you have the button or not, how can you think your KQs is good there?

I've done a bit of reading and nowhere have I read "try not to fold your button". I've read to play your button strong, and play a wider range from your button. That does not equate to not folding your button no matter what happens ahead you... and by the way, the power of the button is completely erased when everyone is all in preflop.

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What we have here... is a failure... to communicate.

Of course it's dumb for KQ. Did it sound like I was defending it? Could have posted HE read something about playing in position, trying to not fold the button. Since it's a $1.50 STT usually not many experts in those.

Tough.... and depending on how the board played out you may or may not have been sucked in anyway. Sounds to me like nobody really caught anything and you would have probably made it out of that hand had you only called and seen a flop though.

You didn't have to re-raise, you should only made a call like you can see the flop.

AKs is a drawing hand at best, your mistake was 4 betting, the raiser may have been playing his position but the caller was serious.He had seen you open and a 3bet yet still called.You should have called the 3bet seen the flop and re-evaluated.

Think about it a few seconds....

You would be happy to race with AK against jj and below, right? Ok not happy, but prepared. How about vs QQ?

Now swap places in your mind, and are you gonna play for all your chips early against a raise and rr with anything less than QQ. If you are like most folks, there might be a schism (in your mind at about the jj/qq barrier, and where you might fold out jj, you might not with qq. Right?

Well, at best AK is a slight underdog to JJ,QQ, and a serious dog to KK, AA, and with the action described it should be a long hard think before committing with a drawing hand.

Read kcanucks reply again, he got it right.

Imo when two playsrs are all in I think ka is no good any more because one of them prolly has aces or kings and the other has a premium pp like qq jj or qk so either way the odds are definitly stacked against you not to mention you still have pleanty of bb so this is an easy fold for me

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I would have pushed in that situation. The reason for this is becuase it is a $1.50 tourney. Many players will push with weak hands like KQ, AJ, A10 in that spot.

I would have a though time folding there... I would know that they have a strong hand, but I have really big problems with folding premium hands..

In a game like that where top 3 spots pay, a lot of the time survival is more important than equity. So Id like to say that i would fold there and even knowing folding is probably the the right move I would probably also have called.

but i will say that i wouldnt have re raised I would have called and if you miss the flop then your still alive, if you hit an ace or king well then it was inevitable.

Thanks for the intel, guys. I honestly am a fish and have read only 2 poker books (and watched quite a few videos), but someone mentioned if I was in opposite situation with a QQ facing a 4bet - I most definitely would lay it down.

If I were you I would just call. This is only the beginning of the tournament. You do not have to lose all your chips. I'd 4bet with (KK, AA) maybe QQ

4 bet right, to know where you are standing before the 1th push the villain and the 2nd call, fold. surely fight vs AA, KK by the villain

Think the 4 bet was a little over the top. I am in the same mind set as everyone else. Call the 120 and re-evaluate after the flop.

I think early on in the tournament, you have zero information on your opponent, so I agree with your re-raise with AK pre-flop. When he shoves, you need to fold. I think you got your information there. You still have a 1100 and a good stack early on, and valuable information on your opponent because the other guy with KQ called so you would have seen their cards anyways.

I agree with the post that the fact it is a $1.50 tourney is a big factor because sum players are more bold not a preferred
Method of play I use as I believe u should play to win no matter $100 tourney/freeroll.cant 100% say wat I would have done. Hard call

I think you did right. With suited AK, that's ok to call all-in. (+ that was MTT). You just was unlucky.