AKs. cooler or not

rdm4k · Dec 7, 2013

oki guys, no HH but the hand is pretty simple so plz do not blame on me

I'd like to know your opinion regarding.
Is it a cooler? do u consider it so?? I consider it as a fnk huge mistake!!! I usually pretty nit in - calling all the stack- unless i feel safe on doing it

Hero were 2x avg with the 2nd bigger stack at the table, we were on the right track playing well with a very good timing and the table. even though was a 3$, was alright (ppl respecting raises, 3bets, ect)

table 9 handed. mtt 3$ BI. 10 min blinds @ 50/100 no ante (level just started).

Hero is utg and holds AdKd. Opens to 300
all fold to HJ who calls.
all fold, blinds fold as well-.

two players in the pot.
flop came: KJ6

Hero (5.5k) cbet 600
Villain (6k)raise 1240

Hero shoves and finds villain with t2p.

Honestly my finger clicked push instead of fold, dunno why... I usually have folded there but so often come up that I overthink too much in the hand reading ending up folding lots of time the best hand.

I found an excuse to call basically.

it's a silly hand, I know, and now i wrote it, looks to me even more as a mistake.

(i wont delete it after have written it whilst playing and messing up with the cg lol

)

When you see people miniraising ip at you in a tournament (suppose that there are no info), what kind of consideration do u do? do u see as a sign of strength ? or weakness ??

skipizzle · Dec 7, 2013

I've been struggling with AK lately, wondering if I give it too much strength. In hindsight, it's a lot easier to call this a mistake but I'm not so sure. If this was late in a tournament and villain is LAG, I think it's the correct move.

It's a tricky spot though; calling is obviously a bad play. It's either fold or push. You'd have to consider his calling range, if there's a high probability he would call a pre-flop raise with worse than KJ or 66; it's still a good push in my opinion.

rdm4k · Dec 7, 2013

skipizzle said:
I've been struggling with AK lately, wondering if I give it too much strength. In hindsight, it's a lot easier to call this a mistake but I'm not so sure. If this was late in a tournament and villain is LAG, I think it's the correct move.

I really think it's a mistake coz:

we have the same stack here,
no info about villain,
we are 2x avg
it's good structure mtt (in ep with blind 10min it is very good indeed) no there is no rush in taking risks,
we have got a very good table (for the micro BI)
Hero has (at least he pretend to have) a significant edge on the field

And all of them are points which dont take consideration of any range. I am sure that if I stove that. he come up as clear fold.

fa1920 · Dec 7, 2013

This very well-played hand these to show strength, there is best to try to get more chips your opponents to progress and not be half in the final table, but especially in those stages where more strength is you have to show.

rdm4k · Dec 7, 2013

rdm4k said:
And all of them are points which dont take consideration of any range. I am sure that if I stove that. he come up as clear fold.

ehmm, I guess i ****ed it up with that statement...

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

175,230 games 0.002 secs 87,615,000 games/sec

Board: Ks Jc 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 77.101% 75.18% 01.92% 131739 3365.00 { AdKd }
Hand 1: 22.899% 20.98% 01.92% 36761 3365.00 { 22+, AcKc, AhKh, AsKs, AQs-ATs, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

the above according to the entire preflop calling range.
---

The following according to a selected range on the flop:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

98,010 games 0.002 secs 49,005,000 games/sec

Board: Jc Ks 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.795% 64.45% 03.34% 63171 3275.00 { AdKd }
Hand 1: 32.205% 28.86% 03.34% 28289 3275.00 { JJ+, 66, AcKc, AhKh, AsKs, AQs-ATs, KTs+, QTs+, J9s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo }

---

Hope I am not missing something

please @skilled players, correct it if it is possible

Btw after have stoved I feel more confused.

Could I ever have folded because of my feeling based on a soul read??
Is this NLHM or not any more :??

rdm4k · Dec 7, 2013

fa1920 said:
This very well-played hand these to show strength, there is best to try to get more chips your opponents to progress and not be half in the final table, but especially in those stages where more strength is you have to show.

I am not sure if I get your point but imho here to show or not to show strength really doesnt matter.
Here the point is to take or not to take the risk to push.

Imho we have a lot of fold equity pushing but when called we are always behind

Arjonius · Dec 8, 2013

What were the stack sizes at the start of the hand? After he raises the flop, villain has put in 1540 chips. The amount of flop equity you have for your push varies with how much he has behind.

Before you shove, another consideration is his range. What do you think it is after he called your 3x UTG opening and then raised your largish flop bet? And how much of this range is he likely to fold, which partly depends on how many chips he has behind. Another aspect of this is when he calls, how often will he ahead vs behind?

rdm4k · Dec 8, 2013

Arjonius said:
What were the stack sizes at the start of the hand? After he raises the flop, villain has put in 1540 chips. The amount of flop equity you have for your push varies with how much he has behind.

Before you shove, another consideration is his range. What do you think it is after he called your 3x UTG opening and then raised your largish flop bet? And how much of this range is he likely to fold, which partly depends on how many chips he has behind. Another aspect of this is when he calls, how often will he ahead vs behind?

We had about 5/6k chips each, almost 2x avg-

Even though doing hand reading regard putting villain on a range of hands, in this spot, coz of timing/info/size/preflop action, I was pretty sure to be playing against the KJ he had - soul reading itt

- and so honestly I wasnt expecting too much fold equity. This is because I believe this spot represent an huge mistake for how the tournament was...

FAOMaalik · Dec 8, 2013

Tail drop

Maybe I'm weak but I'd have dropped it on the raise. I've taken soo much from folks with top pair to my set or two pair.

Weisssound · Dec 9, 2013

When the villain re-raises I actually favor a flat call. It's a little weird, and it kind of comes with how I play, but here's why:

Let's look at the hand possibilities. You raised up - what would he re-raise with? Bottom pair, middle pair, or air? Those are bluffs essentially. Top pair high kicker? That's basically a bluff catcher or an information bet at that point. What about two pair? That would be an ABC play. How about semi-bluffs? There's a lose straight draw on board... don't know about the flush you didn't mention suits.

So that's the total hand range. When you decide to re-raise the ONLY hand that MIGHT call (if the player is pretty loose, and/or thinks you are loose) is the top pair high kicker (like A Q might call you here). All your bluffs, low pairs, draws, they're all folding in this spot. So all that does is throw away value. The only other things calling you have you beat! Sets, two-pair.

As far as I see it, folding is not a good play here. You have %20 to the nuts if you pop another K, an Ace, and you might have a bit of extra equity if the backdoor flush is there. You also have more fold equity against a thoughtful player if any draws show up on the turn or the river. My play is to treat it like a drawing hand and look for a cheap show down if you miss.

In that scenario, let's say you pop another K or an A. You can probably extract a lot more value from a lower 2-pair! Keep your bets mindful of your %20 and re-evaluate your play on the turn and river. My advice.

Lastly - the flat call actually shows a fair amount of strength. It basically says "I'm content with giving you enough rope to hang yourself". It's one of the few spots where if you are feeling ballsy and have a sense of the opponents tendencies you can actually pull a river bluff if you feel so inclined (though I'd keep that play fairly reserved).

kmichaels · Dec 9, 2013

For me and with my experience, AK is the best hand to gamble with in poker. Much better than any pair bellow KK. So yes, AK is cooler.

lost2qandisa · Dec 9, 2013

In a micro tourney, yeah I would have pushed with the AK unless I knew the player to be a TAG. I am not sure it is the correct decision but it would be what I did.

Arjonius · Dec 9, 2013

rdm4k said:
We had about 5/6k chips each, almost 2x avg-

Even though doing hand reading regard putting villain on a range of hands, in this spot, coz of timing/info/size/preflop action, I was pretty sure to be playing against the KJ he had - soul reading itt - and so honestly I wasnt expecting too much fold equity. This is because I believe this spot represent an huge mistake for how the tournament was...

You were pretty confident in your read that he had KJ. You also felt you didn't have much fold equity. When you put these two together, you're saying you knew you were drawing to three outs and that he'd almost always call your shove. So why would you even consider shoving?

If you have enough confidence to go with your read, then it's a pretty easy fold. To see why, work out how negative your EV is in a sample scenario; e.g. if he folds 10% and calls 90% where you have three outs.

rdm4k · Dec 9, 2013

Arjonius said:
You were pretty confident in your read that he had KJ. You also felt you didn't have much fold equity. When you put these two together, you're saying you knew you were drawing to three outs and that he'd almost always call your shove. So why would you even consider shoving?

If you have enough confidence to go with your read, then it's a pretty easy fold. To see why, work out how negative your EV is in a sample scenario; e.g. if he folds 10% and calls 90% where you have three outs.

In fact I considered it as huge mistake

chipstacker · Dec 9, 2013

cooler

what is a cooler

Jblocher1 · Dec 9, 2013

chipstacker said:
what is a cooler

A situation where your play was great but you lost basically. For example all in pre my KK VS. AA is a cooler because I'm obv not ever folding KK pre. I played fine but ran into a bigger hand

stubbie32 · Dec 9, 2013

Just a question re pre flop.Why are we 3 x opening at this point or for that matter now days any point.I would be opening to say 2.1 2.2 at most at this stage.But i think when you get re rasied on that flop.You have to be beat.Even if your not you could definately fold and find a better spot.

rdm4k · Dec 10, 2013

stubbie32 said:
Just a question re pre flop.Why are we 3 x opening at this point or for that matter now days any point.I would be opening to say 2.1 2.2 at most at this stage.But i think when you get re rasied on that flop.You have to be beat.Even if your not you could definately fold and find a better spot.

I am old school definitely

Anywyay I use to mix up a lot and manage the sizing in relation with my stack and rthe table avg
(ex: in early stage of a normal mtt I might open even more 3x- bb20 i might usually raise 70 and so on.)
Then with the blind increase I use smaller size.

The other important point is related to the play style adopted, means that with a more laggish strategy I may be opening smaller. I think this is correct coz if you playing TAG is pointless to open small. It would be likely wasting good spots to make chips-

anywyay this is ot, we are in hand evaluation

rumsey182 · Dec 12, 2013

shoving 50-60BB to a raise in such a small pot is terrible unless the flop was maybe like KxJclub6club when you have maybe AclubKclub

to answer your question you use any reads you have and timing along with simply your range or hands you get there with and finally you consider what villain does with his range based off what you can do

what where you expecting to get called by?

your basically almost turning tptk into a bluff by piling so many BB's here

Badloser4 · Dec 12, 2013

AK is the best, especially online hehe

AK is nice 4 all-in

duggs · Dec 12, 2013

dont pot the flop, easy fold after that

HooDooKoo · Dec 12, 2013

Weisssound said:
When the villain re-raises I actually favor a flat call. It's a little weird, and it kind of comes with how I play, but here's why:

Let's look at the hand possibilities. You raised up - what would he re-raise with? Bottom pair, middle pair, or air? Those are bluffs essentially. Top pair high kicker? That's basically a bluff catcher or an information bet at that point. What about two pair? That would be an ABC play. How about semi-bluffs? There's a lose straight draw on board... don't know about the flush you didn't mention suits.

So that's the total hand range. When you decide to re-raise the ONLY hand that MIGHT call (if the player is pretty loose, and/or thinks you are loose) is the top pair high kicker (like A Q might call you here). All your bluffs, low pairs, draws, they're all folding in this spot. So all that does is throw away value. The only other things calling you have you beat! Sets, two-pair.

As far as I see it, folding is not a good play here. You have %20 to the nuts if you pop another K, an Ace, and you might have a bit of extra equity if the backdoor flush is there. You also have more fold equity against a thoughtful player if any draws show up on the turn or the river. My play is to treat it like a drawing hand and look for a cheap show down if you miss.

In that scenario, let's say you pop another K or an A. You can probably extract a lot more value from a lower 2-pair! Keep your bets mindful of your %20 and re-evaluate your play on the turn and river. My advice.

Lastly - the flat call actually shows a fair amount of strength. It basically says "I'm content with giving you enough rope to hang yourself". It's one of the few spots where if you are feeling ballsy and have a sense of the opponents tendencies you can actually pull a river bluff if you feel so inclined (though I'd keep that play fairly reserved).

You might want to do some work on your board-reading/out-counting skills, as another K in this situation is NOT helpful.

-HooDooKoo

rock0001 · Dec 12, 2013

it isnt a cooler because you have the chance of folding in this spot. villian could have a set or two pairs, so mucking the hand was an option. i would only consider a cooler a hand in which is almost imposible to fold a hand such as kings against aces preflop or 2nd best full house against 1st full house.

Weisssound · Dec 13, 2013

HooDooKoo said:
You might want to do some work on your board-reading/out-counting skills, as another K in this situation is NOT helpful.

-HooDooKoo

It's not - once you actually know he has top 2 pair. I don't see where the OP states he had a clear read on KJ. He could also just as easily have bottom 2pair, a pair of Queens, A 10 with or even without a backdoor flush, or try to be making a play with bottom or middle pair. I guess it's true, with AK seeing the K pair on the board doesn't necessarily give you the stone nuts, but if it does pair the odds are fairly low the other guy is holding the other King with a better kicker than your Ace. THAT'S a cooler.

el_magiciann · Dec 13, 2013

It is a micro tourney, so I would push with the AK unless I knew the player playing style. ;p

AKs. cooler or not

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