AK Hand?

ssbn743 · Nov 4, 2012

This hand occurred in a Saturday deep stack live tourney and I’d just like to see what everyone’s thoughts are.

Starting stacks are $35K and I have about $40K and we are still in the first 30 min blind level with 100 100 Small and Big Blinds, respectively.

There is a raise to $300 from UTG +1 and just about everyone called to me in the hijack. I have

and flat. The SB (a 30 something woman that I play just about every weekend) raised to 2K which starts the familiar contagious folding scene as everyone folds to me.

I immediately put her in the premium range. She is a tight player and is decent – though she has some major holes in her game. My thoughts are that I have a premium as well and if I don’t call here with AK and position considering my chip stack I might as well pack it in – so I make the call. She bets 5K in the dark and slumps over at the table with a big sigh. Pot size is now ~11K.

Flop:

I flat the 5K with two overs, a gut shot, and the nut heart flush re-draw. Pot is now ~16K.

Turn:

She barrels again for 10K. Pot is now ~26K.

What could she have? I can only think of two hands, AK, or a set, maybe JJ or 10 10. I’m leaning towards AK here just from past experience with my opponent but know at worst I will be hoping the board doesn’t pair. I move all in fully expecting a call but knowing that I’m in a good spot. She folds after sulking for a while. She shows

I show the

and she says “of course you do”. That began a 15 minute long ass-chewing about what a donkey I am and how I shouldn’t even be playing in her omnipotent presence. This goes on for most of the day, 4 hours later she was still telling me how bad I am, saying things like “5K on a f&^%ing gut shot.”

Now for my say:

Maybe my flat call on the flop was questionable, but why would she barrel on the turn? I obviously gave her more credit than she deserved, had I known she had aces and would have flat called the turn and let her barrel off on the river. With my stack, position in the tournament, blind levels and position I don’t feel my play was bad and I ended up with a second place finish about 12 hours later, but apparently, I have no idea what I’m doing; just ask my opponent!

youregoodmate · Nov 4, 2012

If you put her on her premium range, i.e 1010+ then youre almost dead on the flop so a call is really bad.

ssbn743 · Nov 4, 2012

Yeah, you know I try not to puts my opponents on specific hands, but rather ranges. I know I said I put her on the premium range and I did, but I was thinking AK. There’s another factor at play here and that is that her and I have some history, several years’ worth, and though the premium range was the range I assigned her I just couldn’t get the AK out of my head.

In hind sight the dark 5K should have clued me in, but it didn’t, I was still thinking she had the same hand that I did. She’s an OK player but…

One of the things she does all the time that I find funny is minimum raising out of position with 5+ limpers in the pot and deep stacks; she does it all the time and I find it funny because every time she gets 5 callers and the agonizes over someone betting into her on the flop before usually folding a “big hand” as she likes to make sure that everyone knows. Obviously that wasn’t the case here but I’m just trying to describe my thinking and why.

So, yes, the flat call on the flop was probably questionable at best, but I don’t mind the float here against this opponent, if I don’t improve I still have my starting stack in the 1st level of the game.

youregoodmate · Nov 4, 2012

luke124 said:
Ace king is over rated

...by bad players

Ducky7 · Nov 4, 2012

You played it fine, this women is upset because she played it horribly and got "sucked out on" but if she is giving off all these tells im putting her on Aces and trying to hit 2 pair + because she cant fold it and is gna inflate the pot, she put 300BB's with an overpair, shes the donk imo, nh

ovitoo · Nov 4, 2012

Ducky7 said:
You played it fine, this women is upset because she played it horribly and got "sucked out on" but if she is giving off all these tells im putting her on Aces and trying to hit 2 pair + because she cant fold it and is gna inflate the pot, she put 300BB's with an overpair, shes the donk imo, nh

Disagree. Suprisingly, cuz Ducky is a beast.

OP: you described her as a nit. There is ONLY (and I stress ONLY, ONLY, ONLY) one hand that a nit could possibly raise off 3-4 limpers and cbet in the dark and its AA. Even KK she is gonna see if the A flops. So logically you were only calling with a gutshot. But hey, you made it and she wasn't smart enough to shut down when she is losing to 50+ combos. So nh.

The way you played it was still +ev, but sometimes a +ev action can be eliminated with some common sense.

Caesura · Nov 4, 2012

I think you should muck your cards in future and leave her wondering. (This will probably irritate her the more and give you a further edge on her.) Incidentally, if she hadn't spouted off on you, would you have assessed the hand differently and thought it an alright play or would you still be questioning it?

ssbn743 · Nov 4, 2012

ovitoo said:
Disagree. Suprisingly, cuz Ducky is a beast.

OP: you described her as a nit. There is ONLY (and I stress ONLY, ONLY, ONLY) one hand that a nit could possibly cbet in the dark and its AA. Even KK she is gonna see if the A flops. So logically you were only calling with a gutshot. But hey, you made it and she wasn't smart enough to shut down when she is losing to 50+ combos. So nh.

The way you played it was still +ev, but sometimes a +ev action can be eliminated with some common sense.

I disagree with myself on several levels with this hand in hind sight – then again, and like you said I certainly don’t think it was –EV.

Calling her a NIT is probably not right, although she is definitely NITTY. The thing is, and my whole real issue in the first place, is that she plays every big hand exactly the same way. Obviously she was in the premium range, but it was AQ suited+ - it could have been anyone of those hands and with position on my side I’m only dominated with AA KK, so I have outs/chop pot against the majority of her range. But the pre-flop call is not the one in contestation – that’s a no brainer.

The dark bet on the flop is what lost her the pot. Maybe I should have put her on AA with the information she gave me, but I didn’t even really think that far into it. What I took away from her actions was that she did not want me to call – so I called, made my hand and played it! Oh, I’m such a donkey in her opinion.

ssbn743 · Nov 4, 2012

Caesura said:
I think you should muck your cards in future and leave her wondering. (This will probably irritate her the more and give you a further edge on her.) Incidentally, if she hadn't spouted off on you, would you have assessed the hand differently and thought it an alright play or would you still be questioning it?

I think the only reason I am questioning it is because she spouted off!

The game of poker, ahh yes, is a funny thing. I know we all say “I don’t need cards to win” but then talk about +EV with AK. But if you can consistently do exactly the opposite of what your opponents want you to do, you will be very successful at poker, and the cards be damned.

In this situation it was clearly a little of both; I called knowing I had some outs, but also because she clearly didn’t want me to – I don’t know, but I don’t have a huge problem with how this hand went down in position with AK and a 200M stack She does though!

Nooneinparticular · Nov 5, 2012

Caesura said:
I think you should muck your cards in future and leave her wondering. (This will probably irritate her the more and give you a further edge on her.) Incidentally, if she hadn't spouted off on you, would you have assessed the hand differently and thought it an alright play or would you still be questioning it?

Take it one step further and dont show, but tell you had KK, or something else believeable

As for your call on the flop, it's nasty IMO. At that point you are pretty much 20% to win and you are calling 5k into an 11k pot. You need 4 to 1, and are getting just over 2 to 1........ If you are going to play here, I prefer the repush to put her to test. But it seems with her it wouldn't work as she MASSIVELY overvalued her aces. She is the typical tight bad player who waits for aces the gets really annoyed when they don't hold up. Players like that always make me laugh when you turn over 78s with a straight or flush to take their entire stack of them. 20x pre and then 5k on the flop blind is hilariously bad play. She might as well show you her hand......

OMGITSOVER9K · Nov 5, 2012

ovitoo said:
Disagree. Suprisingly, cuz Ducky is a beast.

OP: you described her as a nit. There is ONLY (and I stress ONLY, ONLY, ONLY) one hand that a nit could possibly raise off 3-4 limpers and cbet in the dark and its AA. Even KK she is gonna see if the A flops. So logically you were only calling with a gutshot. But hey, you made it and she wasn't smart enough to shut down when she is losing to 50+ combos. So nh.

The way you played it was still +ev, but sometimes a +ev action can be eliminated with some common sense.

LOL, are you ever putting in 300bbs on a QTxJ board in a 3bet pot and expecting AA to be good?

only hand you beat now that calls off is KK, AQ maybe.

but if OP says she's a nit, and she makes this massive over-raise.. i'm putting here on KK AT LEAST, and its very unlikely i'm outflopping her..

ssbn743 said:
I disagree with myself on several levels with this hand in hind sight – then again, and like you said I certainly don’t think it was –EV.

Calling her a NIT is probably not right, although she is definitely NITTY. The thing is, and my whole real issue in the first place, is that she plays every big hand exactly the same way. Obviously she was in the premium range, but it was AQ suited+ - it could have been anyone of those hands and with position on my side I’m only dominated with AA KK, so I have outs/chop pot against the majority of her range. But the pre-flop call is not the one in contestation – that’s a no brainer.

The dark bet on the flop is what lost her the pot. Maybe I should have put her on AA with the information she gave me, but I didn’t even really think that far into it. What I took away from her actions was that she did not want me to call – so I called, made my hand and played it! Oh, I’m such a donkey in her opinion.

live dark bets are like always AA in my experience, but you can't give her credit for that.

AK on QTx flop has 10 outs, but in theory since we're up against AA/KK we have 4 outs, maybe 7.

flop call is obv standard though, I think its the call pre that is in contest imo.

your hand is under-repped but since she never puts in light squeezes and we only dominate 1 hand in her range then we can consider folding.. especially to that massive over-raise. (even if it feels nitty)

Nooneinparticular said:
Take it one step further and dont show, but tell you had KK, or something else believeable

As for your call on the flop, it's nasty IMO. At that point you are pretty much 20% to win and you are calling 5k into an 11k pot. You need 4 to 1, and are getting just over 2 to 1........ If you are going to play here, I prefer the repush to put her to test. But it seems with her it wouldn't work as she MASSIVELY overvalued her aces. She is the typical tight bad player who waits for aces the gets really annoyed when they don't hold up. Players like that always make me laugh when you turn over 78s with a straight or flush to take their entire stack of them. 20x pre and then 5k on the flop blind is hilariously bad play. She might as well show you her hand......

flop calls fine, semi-bluffing when we have FE vs 1 hand in her range imo (JJ) is prob bad.

...

am I just disagreeing with everyone today?

MediaBLITZ · Nov 5, 2012

ssbn743 said:
I Maybe I should have put her on AA with the information she gave me, but I didn’t even really think that far into it.

There's your answer - you did not play the hand well. But not like you are really asking - you seem much more interested in talking about what she did. It is my my guess you are more about being right than getting it right. Maybe because the hand was against "her".

Nooneinparticular · Nov 5, 2012

OMGITSOVER9K said:
LOL, are you ever putting in 300bbs on a QTxJ board in a 3bet pot and expecting AA to be good?

only hand you beat now that calls off is KK, AQ maybe.

but if OP says she's a nit, and she makes this massive over-raise.. i'm putting here on KK AT LEAST, and its very unlikely i'm outflopping her..

live dark bets are like always AA in my experience, but you can't give her credit for that.

AK on QTx flop has 10 outs, but in theory since we're up against AA/KK we have 4 outs, maybe 7.

flop call is obv standard though, I think its the call pre that is in contest imo.

your hand is under-repped but since she never puts in light squeezes and we only dominate 1 hand in her range then we can consider folding.. especially to that massive over-raise. (even if it feels nitty)

flop calls fine, semi-bluffing when we have FE vs 1 hand in her range imo (JJ) is prob bad.

...

am I just disagreeing with everyone today?

You can disagree as much as you want, but you havent justified why it is fine.

SImply put, if you do call on the flop, and the queen doesn't come (which it isnt really going to do....) what do you do on the turn when she pushes you all in?
Calling on the flop is just hideous. Your only valid options are to fold or repush. Against this sort of player though, the ones which overvalue an overpair, repushing is also the wrong thing to do.

Basically, learn to fold pre to players this tight in this situation. Her 3 bet to 20x SCREAMS AA or maybe KK as her entire range.
Just for arguments sake though, lets add QQ and AK to that range.

You are way behind AA and KK. Flipping against QQ and drawing with AK. Where the hell is the value in playing AK in that situation, where your best possible is a flip or draw (basically the same thing in terms of EV....).

Love to hear the justification for calling on the flop........

ovitoo · Nov 5, 2012

ovitoo said:
Disagree. Suprisingly, cuz Ducky is a beast.

OP: you described her as a nit. There is ONLY (and I stress ONLY, ONLY, ONLY) one hand that a nit could possibly raise off 3-4 limpers and cbet in the dark and its AA. Even KK she is gonna see if the A flops. So logically you were only calling with a gutshot. But hey, you made it and she wasn't smart enough to shut down when she is losing to 50+ combos. So nh.

The way you played it was still +ev, but sometimes a +ev action can be eliminated with some common sense.

OMGITSOVER9K said:
LOL, are you ever putting in 300bbs on a QTxJ board in a 3bet pot and expecting AA to be good?

only hand you beat now that calls off is KK, AQ maybe.

but if OP says she's a nit, and she makes this massive over-raise.. i'm putting here on KK AT LEAST, and its very unlikely i'm outflopping her..

Not understanding why my quote is attached to this response.

Simply put, Tourny players don't bet dark. Unless you have a previous example of this player betting dark otf, she's just turned her cards over for you. I'm just gonna repeat myself when I say even KK is going to see the flop before betting (especially a bad player like this who clearly has little post flop skill).

If anyone thinks this is an inaccurate assumption, maybe you will see me live one day and be able to pull this move on me. When I see it, however, I'm just going to ask myself if I can beat AA and if I can; you're in trouble. If not, then you've just lost quite a lot of value by playing stupid.

duggs · Nov 5, 2012

i would raise pre. as played i would fold pre, fold flop, call turn

ssbn743 · Nov 6, 2012

Ok, so it looks like there is some disagreement – and that’s ok, I’m not claiming to be omnipotent. However, I think those that disagree are not considering the entire situation and that may be because I didn’t describe it well enough in the OP.

I didn’t do a good enough job of explaining how dejected she was when I called Pre. She threw her arms down on the table across her neighbors stack, threw 5K out so fast the dealer thought it was part of the pre-flop pot, and put her head between her arms face down on the felt and let out a huge sigh!

How many times have bloggers on this site told me and others not to put opponent on specific hands but rather ranges? I know she’s in the premium range (probably AA) so do I fold a premium hand myself? I have position and 400 BB, I think I’ll see a flop – I have a pretty decent shot against the majority of her range; the range I’m supposed to assign rather than specific hands like the AA she probably has.

You can say what you want about my odds of hitting a queen and pot odds to go with it – but it was clear she didn’t want me to call. She opened the door to every single bluff possibility that may even think about showing up on the turn. In this case, I happened to make the nuts (which was nice) but I didn’t need the nuts. This is precisely why I’m reserved about calling her a NIT, she is, but she isn’t too! Obviously she folded the aces, long after she should have, but she still folded them – a NIT couldn’t do that! All I need is some kind of a bluff opportunity on the turn or river and I’m shoving the next time she bets; the fact that a queen fell and made my hand is and was irrelevant.

For those that disagree and strictly talking about the cards and the pot you are absolutely right, however, there is more to poker than that – especially live poker! The only real credible argument is that it is the first level of the game and I’m already up nearly 15% of my starting stack. I’ll take that one!

Bottom line; poker is an easy game with the information she gave me - this had nothing to do with a gut shot, two overs, a backdoor flush draw, or the fact that my opponent probably had AA, and everything to do with my opponent and the fact that she expected to get beat!

duggs · Nov 6, 2012

raise pre rather than limping, dont call because he range is QQ+ and you do terrible against it and her range is still QQ+ and we dont have implied odds/ turn is a super easy call because 2/3s of her range is drawing dead and the other 1/3 only has pair outs and we never want her to fold.

OMGITSOVER9K · Nov 6, 2012

ssbn743 said:
I didn’t do a good enough job of explaining how dejected she was when I called Pre. She threw her arms down on the table across her neighbors stack, threw 5K out so fast the dealer thought it was part of the pre-flop pot, and put her head between her arms face down on the felt and let out a huge sigh!

lol, its called bad acting. :icon_geek

duggs · Nov 6, 2012

oh and raising flop is horrible,

Ducky7 · Nov 6, 2012

ssbn743 said:
I didn’t do a good enough job of explaining how dejected she was when I called Pre. She threw her arms down on the table across her neighbors stack, threw 5K out so fast the dealer thought it was part of the pre-flop pot, and put her head between her arms face down on the felt and let out a huge sigh!

I dont think i could have maintained myself and not broken into tears of laughter if i saw this happen, I would just have to say (after id finished crying with laughter) "why dont you just flip your cards over?.... Jesus." then she had the cheek to start calling you bad. Never gonna get over that. Brillaint.:icon_geek

ssbn743 · Nov 6, 2012

duggs said:
i would raise pre. as played i would fold pre, fold flop, call turn

You would raise pre, already with an EP raise and 4 to 5 flat callers? Why? What is it that you’re trying to accomplish there? I would fold pre (and have many times in the same spot) way before I would ever raise there.

How do you raise pre and fold pre at the same time?

duggs said:
oh and raising flop is horrible,

Ummm…yeah, I didn’t raise the flop???

OMGITSOVER9K said:
lol, its called bad acting.

It could have been, but I really don’t think it was acting! It was despair, pure and unbridled! There was no acting here!

Ducky7 said:
I dont think i could have maintained myself and not broken into tears of laughter if i saw this happen, I would just have to say (after id finished crying with laughter) "why dont you just flip your cards over?.... Jesus." then she had the cheek to start calling you bad. Never gonna get over that. Brillaint.

Yeah it was one for the books. If I only had a video I could prove that every decent player on this site would have shoved to her next bet if anything resembling a draw completed on the turn – how about a heart?

As I already said, poker is an easy game with that information!

ovitoo · Nov 6, 2012

ssbn743 said:
You would raise pre, already with an EP raise and 4 to 5 flat callers? Why? What is it that you’re trying to accomplish there? I would fold pre (and have many times in the same spot) way before I would ever raise there.
Raise pre bc you are holding a monster and when you're flatting you just trying to outflop 5-6 ppl. And I think he was saying fold to the open raise.
Suppose the flop come (AT5). Now what, since you've let Ax in the pot??

How do you raise pre and fold pre at the same time?

Ummm…yeah, I didn’t raise the flop???

It could have been, but I really don’t think it was acting! It was despair, pure and unbridled! There was no acting here!
Obviously there was.

Yeah it was one for the books. If I only had a video I could prove that every decent player on this site would have shoved to her next bet if anything resembling a draw completed on the turn – how about a heart?

As I already said, poker is an easy game with that information!

duggs · Nov 6, 2012

i would squeeze pre for value, as played i would just fold rather than backraise or call the lol sizing from AA.

folding pre with AK in a single raised pot live is redic. so so so so redic.

and you arent the only one in the thread so the raise comment was not directed at you.

also shoving turn when you completely expect her to fold worse makes no sense

ssbn743 · Nov 6, 2012

Originally Posted by ssbn743
You would raise pre, already with an EP raise and 4 to 5 flat callers? Why? What is it that you’re trying to accomplish there? I would fold pre (and have many times in the same spot) way before I would ever raise there.
Raise pre bc you are holding a monster and when you're flatting you just trying to outflop 5-6 ppl.

Suppose the flop come (AT5). Now what since you've let Ax in the pot??

I fold. I’m going to be trying to outflop 5-6 ppl anyway because no one will fold, everyone has 400BB. You can certainly make a case for raising, but I prefer the slower approach at this point!

How do you raise pre and fold pre at the same time?

Ummm…yeah, I didn’t raise the flop???

It could have been, but I really don’t think it was acting! It was despair, pure and unbridled! There was no acting here!
Obviously there was.

This was no acting – she was not trying to disguise the strength of her hand or make it seem stronger than what she actually had – she DID NOT WANT ME TO CALL and was not acting, at all, or in any way shape or fashion!

Yeah it was one for the books. If I only had a video I could prove that every decent player on this site would have shoved to her next bet if anything resembling a draw completed on the turn – how about a heart?

As I already said, poker is an easy game with that information!

duggs said:
i would squeeze pre for value, as played i would just fold rather than backraise or call the lol sizing from AA.

folding pre with AK in a single raised pot live is redic. so so so so redic.
and you arent the only one in the thread so the raise comment was not directed at you.

also shoving turn when you completely expect her to fold worse makes no sense

Yeah but raising AK when you know everyone is going to call isn’t a good option either – you’re in the same spot with higher stakes.

The turn shove makes some sense; right? You have to represent something? As it was played, as the queen gave me the nuts though I would agree and should have flatted and let her barrel again on the river.

duggs · Nov 7, 2012

why would you represent the nuts v her defined range?
the assumption that noone will fold is absurd. and if nothing else lowering the SPR with the top of our range is ideal.

AK Hand?

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