AK on the bubble 9 man sng

twoturntablez

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Hi there,

When there are 4 players left in a 9 man sng, blinds are 100/200 or more. Lets say two players have 2300 chips each and the other two have plenty.

You have 2300 chips and the large stacks are the

You receive AK and are first, or folded to in 2nd, what do you do? Go all in or just raise to 600/800?

Ive been in this spot it seems so many times recently losing to a pair that calls or I get qq jj 1010 and go all in to be called by an AK and lose.

Is it just standard to push here with pairs 99+ and AK, and standard to call an all in? and lets just hope we win the most flips?
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mrsnake3695

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Personally, I think shove is the standard play here if your first to act or someone has limped before you. What you're really hoping for is someone to call with a weaker ace hand likme AQ although I've seen A2 call here too.

So when your acting first, you have the fold equity plus a chance you have a dominant hand against a call and at worst a coin flip.

The caller is in a worse position and if calling with any pair or any ace has to worry about being dominated.
 
qia1989

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Ive been in this spot it seems so many times recently losing to a pair that calls or I get qq jj 1010 and go all in to be called by an AK and lose.
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to my opinion,i f i hold AK,i will go all in,i have 2300chips and if another player who also has 2300chips have not hold very strong cards like AA KKor QQ, he can not call me,although he call me, that he has AA ,i have also 20 percent to beat him....
 
rounder22

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Your stack compared to the blinds is to low to do anything other then shove in my opinion.
 
brank

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with 11 BBs on the bubble id probs shove 22+ and AT+

being that its the bubble people are goin to be playin very tight id take advantage of that. maybe try to suck them in if you have As or Ks....

but i dont play many tourneys tho soo... tourney players, bump it.
 
et1961

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simular situation w KK

Last night I played a 20 + 2 dollar tourney on Full Tlt with antes. There were over 300 players and only 15 places paid. I made it down to 19 players and was short stacked. I was 18 of 19.

I was dealt KK and was the first to act. I bet 4.5 times the big blind and got a caller. 10,2,6 hit the flop. I bet again about 6 times the blind. He reraised me all-in. I was relatively sure he didn't have aces from the way he played the game earlier. He tended to push all-in imediately with big pairs. I figured I had an overpair as to what the flop was. I put him on a small pair and he was trying to push me off the hand being I had a short stack.

I made the call risking my tournament. He had pocket 2s and won the hand with trips, knocking me out. I never would have expected anyone in their right mind to bet so heavily on the ducks.

This was very upsetting as I was so close to ITM. Do you think I was correct in making the call? Or should I have folded?
 
et1961

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simular situation w KK

Last night I played a 20 + 2 dollar tourney on Full Tlt with antes. There were over 300 players and only 15 places paid. I made it down to 19 players and was short stacked. I was 18 of 19.

I was dealt KK and was the first to act. I bet 4.5 times the big blind and got a caller. 10,2,6 hit the flop. I bet again about 6 times the blind. He reraised me all-in. I was relatively sure he didn't have aces from the way he played the game earlier. He tended to push all-in imediately with big pairs. I figured I had an overpair as to what the flop was. I put him on a small pair and he was trying to push me off the hand being I had a short stack.

I made the call risking my tournament. He had pocket 2s and won the hand with trips, knocking me out. I never would have expected anyone in their right mind to bet so heavily on the ducks.

This was very upsetting as I was so close to ITM. Do you think I was correct in making the call? Or should I have folded?
 
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I would advice to shove from any position.
There is a reason. This is one of the best possible hands u can get. So if u do not shove here u will have to w8 for the next good hand and untill than u can loose even the chips u have now. Bumping into AA or KK is the worst thing that can happen but it happens rarely. Any other hand is just flipcoin or better. Most likely if there are not donks at the table , noone will call u without a reason and the blinds, limps and antes will be yours.
 
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AK push is a standard play because of your chip stack. You may never know when you'll get as good a hand as AK with such a small chip stack. I wouldn't raise, because you have already committed about a 1/3 of your own stack by raising 600/ 800 chips, so why not just push?
 
Douggyfr3sh

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In a st sng I would probably shove here. You have 7.66M and there is a good chance you'll scoop the blinds. Consider what happens if you do raise to 3-4xbb- you will get 3bet shoved with pocket pairs and MAYBE an aq or aj from one of the deepstacks. Unless you are suited, a pp is a 55-45 favorite to win the hand. It is much better to shove because you pick up fold equity.
 
Douggyfr3sh

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et1961 said:
Last night I played a 20 + 2 dollar tourney on Full Tlt with antes. There were over 300 players and only 15 places paid. I made it down to 19 players and was short stacked. I was 18 of 19.

I was dealt KK and was the first to act. I bet 4.5 times the big blind and got a caller. 10,2,6 hit the flop. I bet again about 6 times the blind. He reraised me all-in. I was relatively sure he didn't have aces from the way he played the game earlier. He tended to push all-in imediately with big pairs. I figured I had an overpair as to what the flop was. I put him on a small pair and he was trying to push me off the hand being I had a short stack.

I made the call risking my tournament. He had pocket 2s and won the hand with trips, knocking me out. I never would have expected anyone in their right mind to bet so heavily on the ducks.

This was very upsetting as I was so close to ITM. Do you think I was correct in making the call? Or should I have folded?
Click to expand...

Depending on what your stack was relative to the blinds/antes (how much M you had) I think it would have been better to shove preflop. Also, It depends how big his flop raise was. I am calling a shove on this flop with KK most of the time, but if the pot is at 3k and he raises you all-in to 15k I might get off the hand. Hope this helps!
 
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Shoving is standard no matter what the action really you have 11bb's with a hand which, you dont mind calls, but youd rather just take the blinds down.


Now with pairs from QQ+ id most probably just make a standard raise and let someone behind me make a mistake, as our hand is too strong to just shove and with these hands we dont want fold equity.

The rest of your questions are frankly unawserable without a few key factors like stack size, opponants, ICM issues etc. Your much better off posting specific questions, Or posting specific Hands in the Hand Anaylsis section of this tournament thread. By asking a general question, all your going to recieve is a general answer. Like, for instance, sometimes i can be standard to call an all in with AK, other times, it may be a huge mistake to call on the bubble with AK...
 
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Douggyfr3sh said:
Depending on what your stack was relative to the blinds/antes (how much M you had) I think it would have been better to shove preflop. Also, It depends how big his flop raise was. I am calling a shove on this flop with KK most of the time, but if the pot is at 3k and he raises you all-in to 15k I might get off the hand. Hope this helps!
Click to expand...

When you quote 'M' in sng play, do you change your thinking from MTT to STT. If not, stating M is a waste of time. For you, and for others reading. You need to adjust your thinking of M to include sng play. Your much better off, to use BB or effective BB. It's quicker, and relates the SNG play far better, Like i said, M can be used, but you need to adjust your thinking.
 
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twoturntablez said:
Hi there,

When there are 4 players left in a 9 man sng, blinds are 100/200 or more. Lets say two players have 2300 chips each and the other two have plenty.

You have 2300 chips and the large stacks are the

You receive AK and are first, or folded to in 2nd, what do you do? Go all in or just raise to 600/800?

Ive been in this spot it seems so many times recently losing to a pair that calls or I get qq jj 1010 and go all in to be called by an AK and lose.

Is it just standard to push here with pairs 99+ and AK, and standard to call an all in? and lets just hope we win the most flips?
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Click to expand...

Shove allin. You're never folding here (raise/fold is out of the question) so just shove it allin. It 'depends' a bit on your table obviously... ie if bigstack villain's in blinds are calling wide... all the more reason for shipping it in here (ie. if you're likely to get called down by worse, AQ, AJ, KQ type hands). You have what... 11.5bb's? You'll be down to 10 (or below 10 if blinds are going up).

If blinds are over aggro types and you think they're dumb enough to not realize you're pot committed, I'd probably raise 2.4-2.5x in hopes of aggro coming over top in hopes of getting it allin. (more likely for myself, I'm just shippin' it.... I tend to ship pretty liberally and with my entire range (unless they're really dumb & will fall for a smaller 2.5x rs while on a MONSTER hand... yah.. some are dumb enough to fall for this)... also shipping it w monsters to better disguise hand strength & add deception.
 
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WiZZiM said:
Shoving is standard no matter what the action really you have 11bb's with a hand which, you dont mind calls, but youd rather just take the blinds down.

Agreed ^

Now with pairs from QQ+ id most probably just make a standard raise and let someone behind me make a mistake, as our hand is too strong to just shove and with these hands we dont want fold equity.
In Micros yes ^,.. but against other good players I will also be getting it in w my big prs. too (for reasons mentioned above).

quote]
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lektrikguy

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Definitely a shove. You can min raise or 3 bet and get called, but then miss the flop completely and lose to a guy with 10 J or something. Put the pressure on and just get it all in.
 
POOT85

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hello matey this is my advice.

1.if youve been playing aggressivley on bubble and shoving because everyone is playing tight and trying to sneak into third, id shove cos someone might get fed up and think he cant keep running over me and call with kj a10 or even 10 9 (this is me cos i get annoyed lol) etc. DO NOT raise smaller as it is obvious you want someone to call.

2.not saying your scared of going out, but if youve been abit timid id raise x4 and if you get a call shove on flop no matter what- argue here is that you could get out flopped by a weaker hand meaning we should of shoved preflop, but where here to win not come third!

3.If the BB is chip leader/loose passive and likes to defend blinds with a medium strong hand again id use the above strategy as he might fold to shove but raising might get value -again theres a risk of getting outflopped but we want to win

4. If you been blind stealing with small raises and recently been 3 bet by someone whos sick of you stealing there blinds, do it again as they might 3 bet you again however this time you can call as youve trapped them. (this works better for good players)

Overall it just depends on the players really- most times i use point 1 other times i try getting value cos the players are weaker. You just cant be scared to go out in my opinion.

If you think this is a leak in my game please comment on my advice, thanks
 
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Poker Orifice said:
WiZZiM said:
Shoving is standard no matter what the action really you have 11bb's with a hand which, you dont mind calls, but youd rather just take the blinds down.

Agreed ^

Now with pairs from QQ+ id most probably just make a standard raise and let someone behind me make a mistake, as our hand is too strong to just shove and with these hands we dont want fold equity.
In Micros yes ^,.. but against other good players I will also be getting it in w my big prs. too (for reasons mentioned above).

quote]
Click to expand...


Yeah, totally agree with that last part, regs will be able to sniff out that your stronger than usual, as you will never be raise/folding or "should" never be raise folding in this situation, so a reg may see this as a value play, and fold a stronger hand than normal.
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Oh and also against a regular, you can try and switch it up on them, like for example, raising to that same smaller amount with an average hand, to feign strength as he will most probably read it as considerable strength, It can gain you some folding equity over a good player. as he may fold better hands..
 
Douggyfr3sh

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WiZZiM said:
When you quote 'M' in sng play, do you change your thinking from MTT to STT. If not, stating M is a waste of time. For you, and for others reading. You need to adjust your thinking of M to include sng play. Your much better off, to use BB or effective BB. It's quicker, and relates the SNG play far better, Like i said, M can be used, but you need to adjust your thinking.
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I agree that it is slightly quicker to use BB, but M in a st sng is just BB+SB, so how much harder is that? And yes, I drastically change the way I use M in a sng as opposed to an mtt. I also use it very differently depending on the structure (blinds and payout) of any mtt or mt sng. However, I think that using M is always better than using bb, especially in late stages- as long as you know how to use it.
 
Debi

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I am always shoving here.

Douggy - people who play sng's exclusively might not know the calculation for M - or how it compares to the effective BB they are used to using.
 
Tom1559

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AK is a very strong hand in any position and should be played as such. The bubble always seem to scare guys into changing how they play. I guess it comes down to how much you want to finish 4th or maybe a little but better instead of winning. If 4th spot is a nice profit I can understand playing tight but in most 9 SnG's it is only going to get you your maoney back.
 
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Douggyfr3sh said:
I agree that it is slightly quicker to use BB, but M in a st sng is just BB+SB, so how much harder is that? And yes, I drastically change the way I use M in a sng as opposed to an mtt. I also use it very differently depending on the structure (blinds and payout) of any mtt or mt sng. However, I think that using M is always better than using bb, especially in late stages- as long as you know how to use it.
Click to expand...

yeah thats cool, some people ive found don't adjust their use of M, however it's pretty much a differant way of using the same thing. instead of using M i find its easier and quicker to use effective BB's especially when multitabling and sng in general, most sng grinders tend to use effective BB, Also as dakota pointed out, i dont really ever use M im mostly a cash game/sng player, i dont have the time for MTT :D. however i do grasp the idea, i just get sick of seeing M everywhere :D

It guess its easier expressing M within forums like it's a lot easier to say "I have 5M" rather than "I have 10BB and it's 600/1200/100 with 6 players".
 
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Deff shove it your gonna miss the flop most of the time and what will you do then if you fold your in trouble chip wise?

You have two options at that point shove or fold I think with that hand which is probally the best your gonna see for a while. The bubble is the ideal time to shove.
 
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