Aiming to min cash in MTTs is costing you money

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ph_il

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If you're playing MTTs in hopes of just min cashing, then that is a huge leak in your game and your bankroll.

Before I continue, I was like some of you when it comes to MTTs and I was always content with min cashing; just hoping to squeeze by the bubble. I was happy to make a little bit of money after playing for hours. Who would want to play in a game for 4+ hours and not have anything to show for it, right? Well, I had nothing to show for it in my years of playing on PS and FTP (before the shutdown). I had over 2K MTTs played on each site, ITM ~10%, 1 win, and $0 in profits. And I'm sure thats where some of you are or where you're heading if you continue on this "my goal is to min cash" thinking.

I started playing online again in early October 2014 and since then I've played about 302 MTTs, ITM ~20%, 24 FTs, 4 wins, and ~$356 in profits from a $20 deposit. The sample size is much smaller, but it's a huge turnaround from my previous years playing because I stopped trying to just min cash.

When you play an MTT, the goal should be to survive and finish at the top above everyone else. Whenever you watch an MTT on TV, like the wsop, they don't say something like: "Welcome to the 2014 WSOP where over 6K players have paid a buy-in of $10, 000 in hopes of just min cashing!" because that's just stupid. The reason your goal is to finish as high as possible is because thats where the profits come in.

2 key things you need to know about MTT pay-out structure are they usually pay the top 10% and it's always going to be top heavy. We also need to look at finishing ITM in terms of buy-ins and not as cash value.

So, lets say you're a player whos goal is to just min cash in an MTT. You play 1000 MTTs with 1000 players in it, so the top 100 are making the money. We'll say you're on par with the payouts and you finish ITM in 10% of the games played. The min pay out structure is so:

100th-80th = 3 BI
79th-60th = 6 BI

You usually finish around here for an average of 4.5 BIs per cash.

So, your end results are as such:

1000 MTTs
100 ITM @ average of 4.5 BIs per cash = 450 BIs
450 BIs - 100 BI = 350 BI earned in total.

1000 MTT Buy-ins - 350 BI earned = -650 Buy-Ins

So, you're actually down 650 buy-ins. Even if you were to cash 20% of the time, you'd still be down 200 buy-ins.

Of course, this is an extreme example, but if you're just trying to sneak into pass bubble and into the money and not setting yourself up to finish as high as you possibly can, then you're going to lose money in long run.

So, what is the solution? Most likely you need to work on your mid-late stage game (somewhere I still need to improve). This stage is crucial for building up stacks through stealing and re-stealing because blinds are so high. If you're a player who shows up at this stage with an average stack and think you can just play tight, you wont survive long.

Another thing you need to do to take smaller edges during these stages. This means taking conflips or 60-40s for stacks. It also means you'll cash less frequently because you'll willing to bust out the MTT but you're also setting yourself up to finish much deeper in the MTT when you make a large stack. And you're not just doing this once, you're doing it multiple times throughout the late stages until you have a top 3 stack. There is a lot risks playing for stacks, but also a much greater reward. Remember, payouts are top heavy and will more than make up for giving up frequent min cashes. I've gone on runs where I bust out of 25 $1 MTTs in a row, then I run super deep and make a profit that surpasses what I would've made just min-cashing.

These 2 solutions are easier said than done and it took me a while to get used to it...hell, I still am. I'm sure you've all been there where you're short stacked near the bubble and you're thinking "just 1 more player and I make the money!" but you've given up so many opportunities to finish much higher. It's also much harder when you're on the low end of variance (a big thing in MTTs) and you're down swinging. A min-cash might help feel at ease after downswing, but does it really make anything better? If you're down 20 BIs what does a 3 BI min-cash do for you? Once you start applying these, however, you'll finish much better than before.

Key things to remember:
-Improve your mid-late stage game in MTTs; read up on it, watch strategy guides, and put it to use on the tables.
-Take more coinflips, 60-40s for stages in mid stages.
-Variance sucks, but as long as you're getting your money in good, it'll balance out.
-Be willing to give up freqeuent min cashes for less frequent deeper runs for more profit.
 
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didanz

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Well said ,you have pegged me completely.I am about to be reborn.Thank you for a great post.It is posts like this that will bring me back to this site.
 
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ph_il

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Well said ,you have pegged me completely.I am about to be reborn.Thank you for a great post.It is posts like this that will bring me back to this site.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.
 
mendiolacubicle

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i love this thread, it just gave me the reason to continue how i play, im tired at min cashing. Thanks a lot for the kind advice sir! :)
 
Ducbim

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Nice post. In order to mini cash, a playef has to double up 2,3 times to survive the blinds. And usually mini cash gives him only 2BI. Thats why its not profitable just aiming for cash in. Personally, I dont care much about the prize until I reach the final table.
 
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YouPay4MyCrack

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Nice post. In order to mini cash, a playef has to double up 2,3 times to survive the blinds. And usually mini cash gives him only 2BI. Thats why its not profitable just aiming for cash in. Personally, I dont care much about the prize until I reach the final table.

I agree, 5th and up is usually where the real money is.
 
gus201

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If you're playing MTTs in hopes of just min cashing, then that is a huge leak in your game and your bankroll.


-Take more coinflips, 60-40s for stages in mid stages.
-Variance sucks, but as long as you're getting your money in good, it'll balance out.



I agree with most of what you stated but the coin flips part is just so wrong.
Unless you have a call behind chart and have done your studies in the call behind areas why would you give up your skill to just get into a coin flip situation? We all have better skill to drive home the pots and get the better cashes but coin flips is another fad that has created bad habits .

First off play your hands the way they need to be played when you are getting close to the min cash. Dont be ladder climbing there. This is the biggest spot most players start to lose chips because they are trying to save what they have and are worried to cash.

Having done that a few times you now have programmed yourself to except this and it has become a strategy in your game. recognize when you need to gear up and get a few chip (the dead money) before the other players at the table .


The more you play the more you will understand there are certain areas and places to make moves that will get you chips with out having to run coin flips and hope for the miracle ( Luck ). I do my best to eliminate luck from my game I want as much skill as I can bring to the table as possible .

Just My 2 Cents worth


Good skill at the tables
 
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whoami

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So, lets say you're a player whos goal is to just min cash in an MTT. You play 1000 MTTs with 1000 players in it, so the top 100 are making the money. We'll say you're on par with the payouts and you finish ITM in 10% of the games played. The min pay out structure is so:

100th-80th = 3 BI
79th-60th = 6 BI

You usually finish around here for an average of 4.5 BIs per cash.

So, your end results are as such:

1000 MTTs
100 ITM @ average of 4.5 BIs per cash = 450 BIs
450 BIs - 100 BI = 350 BI earned in total.

1000 MTT Buy-ins - 350 BI earned = -650 Buy-Ins

So, you're actually down 650 buy-ins. Even if you were to cash 20% of the time, you'd still be down 200 buy-ins.

Actually your calculations here are incorrect. Let's suppose that you cash 10 % of the time and when you cash you win on average 4.5 BI (which means 3.5 BI "profit" as you spent 1 BI when registering for the tournament). If you then played 1000 MTTs, you would lose 1000 BIs from registrations and win 100*4.5BI = 450 BIs from cashes. That makes the total profit of -1000 BI + 450 BI = -550 BI so you would lose 550 BIs. Similarly, if you would win 20 % of the time, you would lose 100 BIs after 1000 MTTs.

The mistake in your calculations is that you have calculated the registration fee twice for the cashed tournaments. Once in the 1000 BI number (which includes all tournament buy-ins) and again in the 100 tournaments in which you "profit" 450 BI - 100 BI. You could calculate the correct total by -900 BIs + 350 BIs = -550 BIs, in which you add the profit from the losing tournaments (which is 900 * (-1 BI) = -900 BI) and from the winning tournaments (which is 100*(4.5 BI - 1 BI) = 100*3.5BI = 350 BI).
 
Sil3ntness

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I always notice that right after the bubble bursts, everyone goes buck wild with allin shoves haha.
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I obviously pay attention to the money bubble, but I'm not going to be a NIT warrior and fold pocket Aces if 3 others shove before my action. I'm getting my money in and hoping to take the whole pot down. if I bust as short stack oh well. I'd rather place higher than getting a min cash.

When I get to the final table, I like to watch the big stacks go at it and knock each other out. Funny stuff seeing the 2nd & 3rd chip leads getting knocked out at the final table by the overall chip leader because they can't fold their pocket pairs to the chip leader's set. You don't even have to make any coin flip plays, just let the other players do all the work for you. That will let you slowly work your way up to that golden prize... 1st place of course! :D
 
PokerFunKid

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Hey, nice post Phil! I was playing like this in majors, i won't do it anymore as i also realised it cost you a lot in the long run. It can be a difference between mincashing and 'taking home' a big prize. Gotta play in every game the same (ofcourse you play different against regs, but you know what i mean :)), and dont base decisions on a big min cash.
 
PokerplayerSpy

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Coin flips and baby carnivals

I agree with most of what you stated but the coin flips part is just so wrong.
Unless you have a call behind chart and have done your studies in the call behind areas why would you give up your skill to just get into a coin flip situation? We all have better skill to drive home the pots and get the better cashes but coin flips is another fad that has created bad habits .
Coin flips are dangerous of course but I never won a tournament without winning a bunch of'em. You simply must have luck on your side for tournament day. I do agree that we must avoid the risk as much as possible but it is the show downs you choose that matters. Should I go all in now, or will I have a better opportunity before I blind out? If you are not in danger of blinding out, I would avoid any showdown that takes us out if we lose, unless we have the nuts (almost for sure).

Also someone mentioned playing the bubble, if you are short stacked approaching the bubble, look to steal the blinds often with one min raise as the mini cashers have their asses puckered up so tight that every bet makes them quiver. Once you lose your min cash mentality and go for the win, the bubble becomes a happy carnival of funny babies upchucking money into your hands.
When the bubble bursts, pucker up yourself and look for opportunities to take down medium size pots from those who have opened up their range in celebration of recovering their gas money. these two little strategies have made a world of difference in my tournament play, allowing me, "arguably the worst player in poker history" to win several tournaments just recently.

I also really look forward to, and quite enjoy the mid-late stages of MTT play now, when before I would feel like I was about to puke as my blinds melted away and bullies with deep stacks were kicking me in the gut. I can't say enough about refining that stage for more enjoyable play and better final cash results.

MMS:cool:
 
DonV73

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Personally I didn't need all the calculations to figure out that constant mincashing is a waste of time :)

But, I think it is a good post with good intention to make people aware of this wrong mindset. So big up for taking time to inform others! I read you made a positive influence on some players already :)
 
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I agree with most of what you stated but the coin flips part is just so wrong.
Unless you have a call behind chart and have done your studies in the call behind areas why would you give up your skill to just get into a coin flip situation? We all have better skill to drive home the pots and get the better cashes but coin flips is another fad that has created bad habits .

First off play your hands the way they need to be played when you are getting close to the min cash. Dont be ladder climbing there. This is the biggest spot most players start to lose chips because they are trying to save what they have and are worried to cash.

Having done that a few times you now have programmed yourself to except this and it has become a strategy in your game. recognize when you need to gear up and get a few chip (the dead money) before the other players at the table .


The more you play the more you will understand there are certain areas and places to make moves that will get you chips with out having to run coin flips and hope for the miracle ( Luck ). I do my best to eliminate luck from my game I want as much skill as I can bring to the table as possible .

Just My 2 Cents worth


Good skill at the tables

Your two cents are worthless. You CANNOT win a decent sized MTT without winning some flips. It really is that simple.

-HooDooKoo
 
EA2USN

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Excellent post. I do tend to tighten up mid tourney to try and make the bubble. This is a part of the the tourney game where I feel alot of players struggle.

What I have been doing of late is setting goals for myself when I get mid tourney and the bubble is closing in. 1st to make the bubble then my next goal is to make each jump in the money.

I guess its time to change my thinking and play for final tables.

However on another note. You cant make the final table, if you don't make the money bubble.
 
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This topic got me thinking about my play. I am a player that has just recently started playing online again. Since the shutdown I only have played in Live events once every couple of months or so. When playing online I used to shoot for cashing in 25% of the tournies I played in. Out of that 25% I wanted to finish in the top 2% once out of every 10 cashes. I had multiple years with positive ROIs, but most of my earnings were made in low entry fee events ($5 and under) with breaking even to small losses in higher stakes events.

My question is how often should top 2% finishes be realistically be expected?
 
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flosman

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It is never my goal to min cash. It is always to win, but min cashing is better than non cashing.

My goal is not min cashing it is playing each hand as well as I can. Cashing is the result of playing well, going deep IMO is a result of playing well consistently. This is how I thought of it for as long as I played. When I play higher stakes I think I am probably playing to tight but I also have never played at those level consistently enough to know for sure.
 
gus201

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Your two cents are worthless. You CANNOT win a decent sized MTT without winning some flips. It really is that simple.

-HooDooKoo
Justa question is poker luck or skill ? and do you try to play knowing what the other has or do you play on hope ? Just a question. A miss read is a miss read but playing and putting chips in because you think its a coin flip is rediculous unless you know your the one ahead. I like to have the 60/40 or better advantage then to have the 55/45 just my point is alll.

I hear people make claims to things like you have to win 5 coin flips to win a game , or i got it all in on a coin flip and didnt hit. Im thinking isnt there better spots to being doing this with better knowledge as to why. Players are so head strong and thats what makes the game what it is and hey if they keep playing that way good for them :) I just try to give a different point of view is all.

Good Skill or luck at the tables
 
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ph_il

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Justa question is poker luck or skill ? and do you try to play knowing what the other has or do you play on hope ? Just a question. A miss read is a miss read but playing and putting chips in because you think its a coin flip is rediculous unless you know your the one ahead. I like to have the 60/40 or better advantage then to have the 55/45 just my point is alll.

Poker is a game of long term skill with short term skill. Theres no denying that players with more skill will do better than others in the long run, but you definitely need to get lucky from time-to-time. Especially in tournaments where there is a lot of varaiance and anything can happen.

If your're in the middle of the pack or lower in an MTT, going for flips and 60/40 situations is crucial if you want to survive and finish in the MTT deep, especially when you're 20-30 BBs deep. Blinds get so high compared to your're stack that you're going to have to find spots to get your money, other wise you're going to dwindle down very fast and it might be too late to make a move with a hand like QKs when you're only 11BBs deep.


I hear people make claims to things like you have to win 5 coin flips to win a game , or i got it all in on a coin flip and didnt hit. Im thinking isnt there better spots to being doing this with better knowledge as to why. Players are so head strong and thats what makes the game what it is and hey if they keep playing that way good for them :) I just try to give a different point of view is all.

Well, if you're running well, getting off on big hands, and just building your stack effortlessly, then no, you probably dont need to take unnecessary coinflips. However, you're usually going to folding a lot, taking down small pots, stealing a few blinds, and just trying to around average. But that only takes you so far as the blinds get higher and stacks get shorter. Surviving in an MTT isn't just folding and hoping for a good hand because it might not happen and/or if it does, it's too late. Good MTT players know this and they know they need to get lucky and double their stacks a number of times if they wish to run deep and to give themselves a better chance at winning.

If you look at a lot of top online MTT players, they do the same thing. They're willing to go for flips at the mid-stages to get bigger stack and improve their chances at winning. In fact, ask anyone that plays MTTs and they'l tell you that you need a lot of luck in the mid-stages if you want to win.


Good Skill or luck at the tables
above.
 
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ph_il

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You probably meant: "Poker is a game of long term skill with short term luck."
lol. I'm an idiot. Obv, my typing is short term skill.

Can a mod please fix my post?
 
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There should not be *playing to min cash or play to win* your focus should be to make as much as +ev moves possible and perhaps avoid marginal ones.
 
gus201

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wow !!!!!! I guess trying to keep things in your favor and doing the Table evaluation and knowing each players tendencies and how they react is not what one should work on then ?

Should all players play for the average ( math ) and not strive for better knowledge and understanding to make better decisions at the table ?

I gave my opinion and answered back to HooDooKoo . I didnt answer to get you Philthy riled up. I know you dont need to go looking for coin flips and then blaming variance when we all have enough skill to make better decisions and gather chips to maintain our stacks.

I have a different opinion and different point of view. looking at things from different perspectives some times can help bring other things to a persons attention. when players are so head strong and think one way they lose focus on what really matters .

Good Skill / Luck at the tables
 
NoWuckingFurries

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Your two cents are worthless. You CANNOT win a decent sized MTT without winning some flips. It really is that simple.

-HooDooKoo

They're not worthless, although I agree that you have to win coinflips to win a tournament. I certainly found their 2c more constructive and thought-provoking than your response.

I'm not necessarily always looking for coinflips that I know that I'm ahead in, because sometimes people do coinflips that they are being offered amazing pot odds to do.
 
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ph_il

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wow !!!!!! I guess trying to keep things in your favor and doing the Table evaluation and knowing each players tendencies and how they react is not what one should work on then ?

Should all players play for the average ( math ) and not strive for better knowledge and understanding to make better decisions at the table ?

I gave my opinion and answered back to HooDooKoo . I didnt answer to get you Philthy riled up. I know you dont need to go looking for coin flips and then blaming variance when we all have enough skill to make better decisions and gather chips to maintain our stacks.

I have a different opinion and different point of view. looking at things from different perspectives some times can help bring other things to a persons attention. when players are so head strong and think one way they lose focus on what really matters .

Good Skill / Luck at the tables
First off, I didn't get riled up about your reply, so I dont know why you're getting so riled up about mine.

Theres no denying that skill is a crucial factor in an MTT over the long run, but there is also no denying that a you also need to get very lucky and win a few flips in a tournament in order to beat it. There is always going to be a point in a turnament when you get your money in preflop and you're either flipping, WA/WB, or a 60-40 at best. No matter who you are, if you're in a tournament, you will find yourself in this situation.

Yes, skill, hand ranges, knowing your opponents, etc are going to play a vital role when playing a tournament, but it's not going to help you build your stack that much. You might pick up a few pots here and there, raise/c-bet and pick up another, maybe you resteal, etc. But unless you get into a big hand vs big hand situation postflop, you usually aren't going to build a stack big enough to really compete in the later stages.

As far as coinflips are going, you are necessarily looking for them. It's not like "Oh, I have AQ UTG with 20BBs, I'm going to shove and hope for a flip." It's more of taking the opportunity to flip if it comes up and not being afraid to play for stacks.

For example, say you're on the BB with 99. It's folded to the button who raises 4BB and SB fold. You both are sitting on 25BB stacks. From past experiences, you know BB only raises 2.5x with JJ+ hands so you can rule those out, but you aren't sure about if plays 10/10 the same. It is possible he is raising with an A/x hand, possibly a weak QJ type of hand, or possibly mid pair 22-88. So, what are the options:

-You can't just call and hope to hit a 9 because you aren't getting the odds to set-mine. Also, if you do call and you see over cards, you're stuck in an OOP check/fold situation. And if there is little cards and you bet out, button might fold hands like KJ and you lose a lot of value on your hand.
-You could raise, but if button shoves over you, you need to call since you've commited yourself (folding here is just too weak).
-Shoving is a good option because you still have a lot of fold equity. And, given the breakdown of the opponents hand ranges, if they do call, you're pretty confident that you're going to be in flip situation, WA smaller pairs, only way behind 10/10, and a slight edge against hands like Q9s, J10s, etc.

So, it does take what you're saying into consideration as to whether or not your play is +EV. My point is, these are crucial moments in an MTT that you shouldn't be afrait to take because it's what is going to let you do well in an MTT. Of course, there are many other factors like is the opponent super nitty and only raising with QQ+, how many opponents are in the hand and what was the action, etc.

An MTT is a game of constant decision making with the goal to make all the right ones and forcing your opponent the make all the wrong ones. A whole night of right decisions can mean nothing if you make the wrong one just once. And no MTT strategy is one-sized fits all; you need to be flexable and change up your strategy depending on a lot of factors. My MTT strategy is constantly changing in game.

The point of this thread is help weak MTT players get passed that mid-stage hump where they do so well in the early stages, but when mid and bubble play comes in, they're barely holding on because they haven't switched gears and they're giving up opportunities to build a stack and go far.
 
Shumkoolie

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This is definitely a good thread to go through. I'll probably read it multiple times. But, like everybody else, I'm trying to improve my game. Here are some thoughts.

I hear people say they don't try and steal blinds early when they are small. I don't agree with that. Sure, the chips are small relative to your stack, but you should have a consistent approach in playing these tournaments.....to try and win. Now, that's not to be confused with being predictable, because changing gears is important. The objective to win should always remain consistent, but how you play each hand should be done in such a manner as to not seem like you're telegraphing what you are trying to do. Accumulating chips is going to be important so that you're not just treading water when you're getting close to the money bubble.

Probably my favorite stage of a tournament is after the bubble bursts. It's almost as if people have spent a few minutes sweating that bubble, and when that finally bursts, it's as if they have mentally let up, and it is human nature to sit back and breathe. However, this should now be your time to get in there and catch people making mistakes, or forcing your opponents to make mistakes.

These are just some thoughts I had about tournament poker.
 
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