AA/KK - Early Stages of STT

J

JEP712

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Total posts
538
Chips
0
I feel like whenever I pick up AA/KK early on in a STT, I'm not getting as much value as I should be. I would raise 2.5/4.5xBB depending on the situation. Normally I would just pick up the blinds or pick up limpers' chips.

One senerio I can't stand and I feel happens way to often is me betting with AA/KK the standard 3x and having 1-2 callers. Then one of them hits a set and I have to pay them off.

Any advice on playing monsters early on in a STT?
 
T

The_Pup

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Total posts
254
Chips
0
One idea is to open shove - especially first hand - you won't usually get many chips (although you sometimes get a call) but what you do get is an instant image that you can use later to your advantage.

If you are lucky your next hand is a monster and you open shove again; if the third is another premium you'll be amazed the calls you get from QTo type junk. Of course, the poker gods then give the donkey a flush...
 
jho

jho

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Total posts
1,450
Chips
0
One idea is to open shove - especially first hand - you won't usually get many chips (although you sometimes get a call) but what you do get is an instant image that you can use later to your advantage.

If you are lucky your next hand is a monster and you open shove again; if the third is another premium you'll be amazed the calls you get from QTo type junk. Of course, the poker gods then give the donkey a flush...

I don't like the idea of having all your chips in there preflop too often unless absolutely necessary. And I feel early stage the reward of the table image is not worth most of the table folding to you to just pick up blinds.
 
wrung24

wrung24

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Total posts
455
Chips
0
I can't see a lot of alternatives. In the early stages you can't limp because that will create a limp chain and your hand is vulnerable.

Just play these hands strongly but don't overplay them, against one or two players it will be good most of the time.

I'm of course aware that an overshove from a player at microstakes can be AT on T62 board or a set, it's hard but don't get discouraged, they are still good hands
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

Jammin................
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Total posts
11,706
Awards
2
Chips
122
Yea, AA-KK early is not usually gonna get you a lot of chips. I bet 3-4 BB, more depending on how many limpers are in, and I will pretty much re raise any re raise to me. You have to be willing to fold depending on the flop, say you raise 3x bb get 1-2 callers, and the flop is 3 hearts, or or a pair, and one callers comes out strong, I am laying my cards down here. Especially KK against an A flop with a caller showing strength. I will always c-bet if I am first, but if I get played back at with a dangerous flop, I am done putting chips in. (depending whether or not you have a read on him, you might want to push an idiot).
There is nothing wrong with taking the blinds. I find I am mainly winning small pots with these hands early tour, and losing big pots.

And fwiw, I never push all in if I am first to bet with these hands. I want to make a 3-4 bb bet, and if I get some callers, and the flop is good for me, I can try to milk it, but I can still get out with most of my stack if the flop doesent like me, or push others out with a c bet.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
One idea is to open shove - especially first hand - you won't usually get many chips (although you sometimes get a call) but what you do get is an instant image that you can use later to your advantage.

If you are lucky your next hand is a monster and you open shove again; if the third is another premium you'll be amazed the calls you get from QTo type junk. Of course, the poker gods then give the donkey a flush...

Sorry, but this is just a horrible idea.

Anyone stupid enough to give us action based on a bet like this was probably going to give us action with a more reasonable sized bet too. And making a play like this on the basis that it sets us up for a huge payout on monsters in the near future is flawed too because we're simply not going to catch that magic combination anywhere near enough times for it to work.

The simple fact is that people usually play conservative at the start of a SnG and, unfortunately, that means we often won't get the action we want on our big pairs. There's not a lot we can do about it and I certainly don't think it's a problem so big that we need to go making crazy plays to "fix" it. Play them rationally, don't get hung up on it if you don't win a big pot and you'll be fine in the long run IMO.
 
nathan12420

nathan12420

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Total posts
40
Chips
0
You can play them according to the situation the table gives you. If the table is semi-loose you should maybe just try to shoot em all in and hope that one is holding ak or aq or aj thinking that you are holding a small pair trying to pick it up there. If the table is a tight one then you already know the types of hands the people are going to be holding and a large raise preflop is still necessary just in case they are holding a drawing hand or a pair. You need to maximize the amount you get in the middle before the flop, but be willing to get away from it if the texture of the board is bright. If you have kings in late position and there is a raise in early position and one or two callers in between them and you, chances are there are two of the 4 aces right there. Reraise and try to get HU against someone. If you get a caller they probably have a decent pair and then you wait to see what happens next. Poker is a game of situations and choices. Make the right moves based on what you know that your opponent does, try not to guess too much.
 
greenokom

greenokom

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Total posts
97
Chips
0
In this situation of course you have more odds to win and you probably win but since it one of the first stages of the game and the blinds are low then you should increase 4-5 times BB.
 
O

only_bridge

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Total posts
1,805
Chips
0
Most people in those are so unbelivebly passive, so you can just raise, and bid for value. And then instafold if you get re-raised (unless u have the nuts of course).
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
In this situation of course you have more odds to win and you probably win but since it one of the first stages of the game and the blinds are low then you should increase 4-5 times BB.

Just wondering (assuming we're talking about an opening raise here and not a three-bet), why would we want to bet that high?
 
gamblorised

gamblorised

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Total posts
61
Chips
0
If it's one of the first 3 hands of the game, I will push all my chips in. Every so often in this situation you will get a call from A 10. Usually you get no action from your all in bet, but this early in the game you probably win the blinds with only a 3x blinds bet.
After that I will choose either the standard 3x blind bet (most times) or the call/check slow play limp in (only occasionally).
No matter what you do, if u somehow do win a monster pot early on with AA, think yourself lucky instead of skillful, Lol!
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
If it's one of the first 3 hands of the game, I will push all my chips in. Every so often in this situation you will get a call from A 10. Usually you get no action from your all in bet, but this early in the game you probably win the blinds with only a 3x blinds bet.

I'm not even sure I want to get into how bad an idea this is for a second time. I'll just make the suggestion that your thinking is almost certainly based on selective recall. The one time you got called by AT doing this is clouding out all the times where you did better by raising a normal amount.

A play like this will become less and less effective (if we can call it effective to begin with) as we go up in stakes too.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

Jammin................
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Total posts
11,706
Awards
2
Chips
122
If it's one of the first 3 hands of the game, I will push all my chips in. Every so often in this situation you will get a call from A 10. Usually you get no action from your all in bet, but this early in the game you probably win the blinds with only a 3x blinds bet.
After that I will choose either the standard 3x blind bet (most times) or the call/check slow play limp in (only occasionally).
No matter what you do, if u somehow do win a monster pot early on with AA, think yourself lucky instead of skillful, Lol!


I agree with Oz`s answer here. I play lower limits so I will NEVER limp these hands early tour unless it is a bit into the STT and I in CO or button, and have some kind of read on my table and all have folded to me. And even then not usually. All in will get the maniacs to call with ATC more than a 3-5 BB bet will (I am pretty much always raising around this amount here), your AT will call a 3-5 BB more than an all in, pushing all in early tour makes no sense to me. Exception is I raise and am re raised say 1/2 villains stack, I RR all in, or call his all in. And above you stated that 3 BB will usually win you the blinds, which is a fine outcome in any case, so why push all in if you achieve the same result with a normal raise?
 
O

onetime

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Total posts
75
Chips
0
Play

Play it according to what the table does.Don't do anything foolish or reckless.Just play your hand smart to get the most return on your hand.Just because you have good cards doesn't mean your going to win the hand.Just play smart and don't make the mistakes that would enable you to lose the hand.
 
Kountess

Kountess

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Total posts
76
Chips
0
I believe the idea is great to bet 3x BB and re-raise if you have to, to see where you stand and I would only go all in if the player re-raised me all in preflop.
 
CheeseConey

CheeseConey

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 25, 2008
Total posts
304
Chips
0
If it's like the first couple of hands of a micro-limit or freeroll, I would try to just shove all in. You'll often find a caller whose looking to just risk everything for the quick double up early in the tournament.
 
JupeZ

JupeZ

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Total posts
279
Chips
0
If someone raises before you just re-raise more than 3x original raise. But if there is no action before you just raise like 4x bb... if you get blinds its really a no can do situation. I would never limp in with AA early on.
 
dino

dino

10 cevapcici = 0 stress
Community Guide
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Total posts
6,534
Awards
3
DE
Chips
247
I know that many don't make this type of call, but I usually go all in after few seconds of thinking and usually got called by someone with small pair or connectors, so if you get called you have good possibilities to win big and play t/a after that.

That's just me.
 
M

Mr Whatever

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Total posts
232
Chips
0
I really think it depends on the buyin of the tourn.

Im gonna assume this is a lo lim or freeroll buyin.

If it was a higher buyin where I know ppl are gonna fold but maybe call with a premium hand or a nice drawing hand very early in a tourn yeah I can see Pups advice of a shove with aa to play the odds but not really with kk.

In this instance in a early freeroll or lo lim buyin -its gonna matter in what position u get this premium hand and how many ppl are left in the hand.

If it’s a lo lim buyin or freeroll in early position I wouldn’t shove with these hands because ur just gonna get like the whole table calling lolol especially on the 1st hand and ur pocket pair go down toooo much in value.

in early position id play it cautiously and just raise it like ur doing. And play accordingly.

But if I get the whole table getting stupid and going all in and ur in early position and u have only like 100 or 150 of ur 1500 on the table, id ditch it believe it or not. if this is a deep stack tourn even with aa or kk there is no way in the world im going all in with such early blinds.

Omg, fold aa or kk in early position with a lot of all ins? yeah.. . . . yeah, fold it.

If ur on this forum- im assuming ur getting serious about learning poker. so im gonna assume there are gonna be better instances where u can just outplay a lot of the regular freerollers and low buyin players.

u will have better opportunities than calling most of the table on a pair, even a pair of aces or kings. That’s why I would agree with jho against shoving preflop early.

Just too many opportunities to beat them. U just don’t want ur whole stack on the table and have 82 beats u with 2 pair or a set lololol. id fold it.

But from late position and almost every1 gone in the hand, I can see a shove with aa. But I still would advise against it because ur gonna have chances to outplay them. Sure they’ll get lucky on u, but u should be ok.

But I wouldn’t get too overworked about freerolls, because the payouts are just soooo awful. On fulltilt its like what 45 out of 7500? What is that? Less than 1% cash? So the odds are drastically set against u.

if ur playing on full tilt id suggest the satellites to the ferguson and the daily dollar freerolls and the daily buck tourn because the payouts are better.

Overall=don’t get so worked up over the bumps along the road just enjoy the drive. Hope I helped.


GL
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
In response to the above nobody should ever, EVER be folding AA PF early in a single-table SnG. There's conservative, and there's costing yourself money. Folding AA PF, even multi-way, falls squarely in the latter category.
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
I think a few posters have missed the fact that the OP is asking about STTs here.
 
M

Mr Whatever

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Total posts
232
Chips
0
Ever huh? I don’t get ur reasoning.

If u have aa in early position and 4+ players go all preflop ur a 40% fav or worse. the more ppl go all in, the worse it gets. its not a cash game situation where u can just rebuy.

40% or worse is not acceptable to me for so early in an sng or tourn where the experience level isnt that high to begin with.

but if ur happy with less than a coin flip, than so be it. thats u.

aa is just a pair, nothing more. i have no idea how ppl get carried away with it.

Its early on and the blinds are nill. Id relax.
 
G

Gr3atness

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
1,000
Awards
1
Chips
0
Ever huh? I don’t get ur reasoning.

If u have aa in early position and 4+ players go all preflop ur a 40% fav or worse. the more ppl go all in, the worse it gets. its not a cash game situation where u can just rebuy.

40% or worse is not acceptable to me for so early in an sng or tourn where the experience level isnt that high to begin with.

but if ur happy with less than a coin flip, than so be it. thats u.

aa is just a pair, nothing more. i have no idea how ppl get carried away with it.

Its early on and the blinds are nill. Id relax.

Keep in mind its 40% to have 7500 chips, over half the chips in play (assuming 9man SnG). You should win most of the time you have 7500 to the next highest of 1500
 
M

Mr Whatever

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Total posts
232
Chips
0
that is true and a very valid point, greatness. ur laughing all the way to 1st unless something goes wrong.

and we all know nothing goes wrong in nl holdem especially with such a large lead, right? hmmmmm. lolololol

but the point is how ur getting there to the winners circle.

are u willing to risk it all early to get a commanding lead, especially if the field is weak?

ull get there only 3-4 times outta ten. what about the other 6-7?

nope, nope nope, with a weak field like was mentioned in a low lim sng there is no way im going all in with aa early with half/+ the table going all in. never, ever. it doesnt make sense to me. theres just too much poker to be played to risk on 1 hand on just a pair.

on a flip side because i dont like to be yea or nay on issues but look at it from different angles -u can make a point that 3-4 times out of 10 isnt bad for ur roi in sngs, so i can see what ozexorcist is coming from when they disagree with me.

but don’t get mad when ur precious pair gets cracked with trash. lololololol

But either way i really dont think about it as being right or wrong. its more like what suits ur personality, expectations and desires. i will simply agree or disagree with some1 and state why. i believe it is more important to be involved and thinking about the hands and poker strategy, than simply yea or nay on an issue.


on a side note,
I still disagree with u ozexorcist on that stud8 issue. told me in a earlier posting that an ace with 2 wheel cards is an awesome starting hand and should be capped and not played cautiously although the cards u need to hit are dead and ur staring against someone's made hi hand in stud8. I still don’t agree with u. lololololol .
 
O

only_bridge

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Total posts
1,805
Chips
0
In response to the above nobody should ever, EVER be folding AA PF early in a single-table SnG. There's conservative, and there's costing yourself money. Folding AA PF, even multi-way, falls squarely in the latter category.

What if you play a 6 player satellite SnG, where 1st and 2nd win a ticket to the Sunday Million. (these are very common on PS)
Everyone starts with 500, blinds 25-50 with 10 ante.
You are BB, and everyone goes all-in in front of you.

Now if you fold you have over 90% chance to win the grand price.
 
Top