A thought on regs

Bwammo

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Been reading a lot of talk about regs(regulars) and how to deal with them in these forums so I just thought I'd chime in on the matter. Btw, these ideas sprang from the bellies of STTs, but apply to most tournament games.

These days there are regs at every level and every type of game. Typically, for every reg at the table, you will lose a portion of your ROI. This is NOT always the case as there are varying degrees of reg-dom.

Some regs are spewtards who just happen to play enough to catch your eye. Most regs fall into a middle category where they know enough about the game to avoid losing(they’re good at folding), but haven’t sustained any sort of large profit. There are certainly a few(very few) regs who…well lets just say they’re tough. Maybe they’ll 3-bet wide or float in position waiting to bluff. Maybe they’ll limp AA from the SB into your BB and trap your ass.

The key is recognizing who is who. In order to properly do that you need tools at your disposal, like a HUD or sharkscope, and you need to know what the maximum ROI at your level is. If the player is around 20% of the maximum ROI for your level, you can go ahead and assume he’s simply good enough to fold his crappy hands but is liable to play hands too aggressive or make overcalls(essentially play like a noob who just read their first book). If the player is around 50% of the maximum ROI, we can deduce that the player is solid…but either a little too solid or a little too loose. The only ways to find out what type they really are is to either look at some HUD stats or just play a few hands against the dude. Of course, if you scope someone and find out that they are right near the top of the ROI food-chain, you can assume they are experienced and well-rounded players.

Jumping back to my original thought that regs don’t always decrease your ROI…if you know what you’re up against, you can play accordingly.

Lets say we’re on a table on the button and someone pops it 3x from CO-1. Typically we just fold our non-premium hands and move on. But, we’ve got a note on the raiser saying he’s in the 50% of max ROI category. Our HUD tells us this player has been stealing 35% of the time over 300 hands. The last note says…this player sees flops with a little more than he probably should. That being said, there is a decent probability that he is currently raising a hand that he would NOT like to see a showdown with. Couple that with the intense fear everyone w/o the nuts experiences when someone 3-bets all in from position, and you’ve created the optimal circumstances for jamming wide. By making this play(when successful), you are increasing your stack size by at the very least 4.5 BB. That little increase could be the difference between winning and losing…and we CREATED those chips by simply knowing our opponent. If we knew nothing about this reg, we would have just folded assuming there’s a high probability he’s holding a decent hand.

In a sense, we have just increased our ROI by playing against a reg. Awesome ain’t it?
 
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There was a guy who I used to see alot in my games who played like 8- 10 tables and I used to stay out of his games because he was decent enough, but once I understood some of his players I liked having him at my table. Ok this was micro stakes but he must have been huding because was making certain plays that came close to some notes I had made on others and I ralised he was giving my plays a bit to much respect (what can I say I am a rockfish). This helped me alot in the 2nd table of the 18 mans I would play because he would go after the fish and I could have a less troubling bubble portion of the game.

As a side affect my bubble play is now terrible- gg poker sigh.
 
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Good post! One thing you pointed out to me was the regs who are rakeback grinders - loads of volume, making a profit, playing a gazillion tables,etc. All they want care about is volume and you were right about how easy it is to play back at them.
 
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zackryan28

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Been reading a lot of talk about regs(regulars) and how to deal with them in these forums so I just thought I'd chime in on the matter. Btw, these ideas sprang from the bellies of STTs, but apply to most tournament games.

These days there are regs at every level and every type of game. Typically, for every reg at the table, you will lose a portion of your ROI. This is NOT always the case as there are varying degrees of reg-dom.

Some regs are spewtards who just happen to play enough to catch your eye. Most regs fall into a middle category where they know enough about the game to avoid losing(they’re good at folding), but haven’t sustained any sort of large profit. There are certainly a few(very few) regs who…well lets just say they’re tough. Maybe they’ll 3-bet wide or float in position waiting to bluff. Maybe they’ll limp AA from the SB into your BB and trap your ass.

The key is recognizing who is who. In order to properly do that you need tools at your disposal, like a HUD or Sharkscope, and you need to know what the maximum ROI at your level is. If the player is around 20% of the maximum ROI for your level, you can go ahead and assume he’s simply good enough to fold his crappy hands but is liable to play hands too aggressive or make overcalls(essentially play like a noob who just read their first book). If the player is around 50% of the maximum ROI, we can deduce that the player is solid…but either a little too solid or a little too loose. The only ways to find out what type they really are is to either look at some HUD stats or just play a few hands against the dude. Of course, if you scope someone and find out that they are right near the top of the ROI food-chain, you can assume they are experienced and well-rounded players.

Jumping back to my original thought that regs don’t always decrease your ROI…if you know what you’re up against, you can play accordingly.

Lets say we’re on a table on the button and someone pops it 3x from CO-1. Typically we just fold our non-premium hands and move on. But, we’ve got a note on the raiser saying he’s in the 50% of max ROI category. Our HUD tells us this player has been stealing 35% of the time over 300 hands. The last note says…this player sees flops with a little more than he probably should. That being said, there is a decent probability that he is currently raising a hand that he would NOT like to see a showdown with. Couple that with the intense fear everyone w/o the nuts experiences when someone 3-bets all in from position, and you’ve created the optimal circumstances for jamming wide. By making this play(when successful), you are increasing your stack size by at the very least 4.5 BB. That little increase could be the difference between winning and losing…and we CREATED those chips by simply knowing our opponent. If we knew nothing about this reg, we would have just folded assuming there’s a high probability he’s holding a decent hand.

In a sense, we have just increased our ROI by playing against a reg. Awesome ain’t it?

Good post. I was thinking about opening a discussion on regs, since I am kind of one myself.

I like your comment that some people are "good at folding". I think you hit on a key point here. Anybody who has read a poker book or read a couple of blogs know to play "tight-aggressive". Yet there are so many of these "tight-aggressive" players who have break even or negative ROI% numbers. This got me thinking "What are they doing wrong?" After all, their VPIP% and other numbers are comparable to mine (Just to note, I've made about $1,500 at $6.50 turbos as a casual player, typically playing 6 tables at once). I think the biggest flaw is that these "regs" don't understand ICM whatsoever. I see sooooo many mistakes around the bubble. Going all in with a big stack when there's a micro stack folded, suddenly becoming passive when the blinds get super high and getting blinded out, etc... ICM (as well as a few other factors, such as discipline and tilt control) really seem to make the difference between breaking even and making good profits.

The other thing about the regs is of course they play incredibly predictable poker (in general). There's no creativity, esp. when they are playing 15+ tables. This is another thing that can be exploited if you have a strong understanding of what their hand range is.

With that said, I will admit that I use sharkscope and my knowledge of other players profits to do some table selection. There are a few guys at the $6.50 level that have make $20,000 or $30,000 with good ROI%, so I will typically avoid them in favor of some of the more break even regs. No point in playing a bunch of people that are as good-or better than you.
 
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Good post. I was thinking about opening a discussion on regs, since I am kind of one myself.

I like your comment that some people are "good at folding". I think you hit on a key point here. Anybody who has read a poker book or read a couple of blogs know to play "tight-aggressive". Yet there are so many of these "tight-aggressive" players who have break even or negative ROI% numbers. This got me thinking "What are they doing wrong?" After all, their VPIP% and other numbers are comparable to mine (Just to note, I've made about $1,500 at $6.50 turbos as a casual player, typically playing 6 tables at once). I think the biggest flaw is that these "regs" don't understand ICM whatsoever. I see sooooo many mistakes around the bubble. Going all in with a big stack when there's a micro stack folded, suddenly becoming passive when the blinds get super high and getting blinded out, etc... ICM (as well as a few other factors, such as discipline and tilt control) really seem to make the difference between breaking even and making good profits.

The other thing about the regs is of course they play incredibly predictable poker (in general). There's no creativity, esp. when they are playing 15+ tables. This is another thing that can be exploited if you have a strong understanding of what their hand range is.

With that said, I will admit that I use sharkscope and my knowledge of other players profits to do some table selection. There are a few guys at the $6.50 level that have make $20,000 or $30,000 with good ROI%, so I will typically avoid them in favor of some of the more break even regs. No point in playing a bunch of people that are as good-or better than you.

I agree with you here. The first thing I do at a table is see who is multitabling and check notes on players I've met before. I like a few regs at my table because of their predictability - they are generally easy to steal from early on, can be bluffed off dry flops etc. I had a contrasting player at a table last night who was possibly the worst poker player I have ever played: calling down small pairs on wet boards, min raising UTG with 5BB, making awful all in calls etc etc.* His poker career has lost him $800 over 100 SnGs at $12 average buy in - that takes some doing! Anyway, my point is that whilst I know that this kind of prize donkey is where the money comes from, I hate them at my table because I just never know where I stand: if I raise with AA and they call and then bet out on a J74 rainbow flop I am at a loss. With a regular you can keep pots small or push them off an AJ hand or get a sense of whether they have hit their set, but with the donkey they could have anything from JJ to 74 to A4.

I wonder if your observation about multitablers poor ICM knowledge is down to the sheer volume of tables. I only play two at a time and am able to keep track of what is going on: who is sitting out, shortstacked, the fish, tilting etc. With tables popping up one after the other I wonder how anyone can keep track of simple things like who opened preflop. Do multitablers take time to look around the table to see what is going on and get a sense of where the game is at?


*For the record my donkey knocked me out on the bubble in our 27 player SnG when I shoved my AQ to his AK limp and went on to finish second. His heads up play was truly the most awful thing I have seen for ages at a poker table.
 
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I agree with you here. The first thing I do at a table is see who is multitabling and check notes on players I've met before. I like a few regs at my table because of their predictability - they are generally easy to steal from early on, can be bluffed off dry flops etc. I had a contrasting player at a table last night who was possibly the worst poker player I have ever played: calling down small pairs on wet boards, min raising UTG with 5BB, making awful all in calls etc etc.* His poker career has lost him $800 over 100 SnGs at $12 average buy in - that takes some doing! Anyway, my point is that whilst I know that this kind of prize donkey is where the money comes from, I hate them at my table because I just never know where I stand: if I raise with AA and they call and then bet out on a J74 rainbow flop I am at a loss. With a regular you can keep pots small or push them off an AJ hand or get a sense of whether they have hit their set, but with the donkey they could have anything from JJ to 74 to A4.

I wonder if your observation about multitablers poor ICM knowledge is down to the sheer volume of tables. I only play two at a time and am able to keep track of what is going on: who is sitting out, shortstacked, the fish, tilting etc. With tables popping up one after the other I wonder how anyone can keep track of simple things like who opened preflop. Do multitablers take time to look around the table to see what is going on and get a sense of where the game is at?


*For the record my donkey knocked me out on the bubble in our 27 player SnG when I shoved my AQ to his AK limp and went on to finish second. His heads up play was truly the most awful thing I have seen for ages at a poker table.

Thanks for the reply. Regarding ICM, I believe the big profit players have a great understanding of ICM, and this is where their profits come in.

I just got done playing with a guy who has made about 30K in 22K games, which is very good at a buy-in of $6.50. And this guy is a bully late in the tourney! At 2 tables, he was chip leader, I was 2nd. We were on the bubble, and I was directly to his left. Every hand--and I mean every hand--he shoved me all in if it folded to him. Why is this smart? Because he knows I can't call unless I have AA, KK, or QQ (even QQ is questionable). This is a huge mistake most people make. calling an all in from the chip leader with AK or worse when in 2nd or 3rd place on the bubble is a HUGE mistake, and it drops your equity considerably. He knows this, so he can shove into me all day. And as long as these idiots are hanging onto their last 900 chips in hopes that I somebody else will get eliminated, I am relegated to being bullied, and will likely be forced into 2nd or 3rd place (if I'm lucky!)

Point is, this guy was playing approx. 18 tables while doing this. Now, I only play 4-8 tables at once, so don't ask me how he does it. I am working on my multi tabling skills, but I think I'm a long way off from playing more than 10.
 
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I'm disappointed nobody else is adding to this thread. I think there are some enticing ideas floating around here that could be discussed further with new input.
 
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Yea - same here. This could be a great discussion - even bwammo needs to get his butt back in here lol.
 
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Yea - same here. This could be a great discussion - even bwammo needs to get his butt back in here lol.

Thirded, the forum has sme great ideas flowing through it right now, wish I had the time to spend here digesting it all. Think I will keep myself to sng and beginners for a while.

Ok well since I took all my roll out bar some I have been playing while I can (on holdays til march). So I started at the 1$ 9 mans and since I am in a strang time zon find myself facing the same 2 players, one who plays 20 tables (at 1$ :O) and one between 8-10. If I am playing usally they are so I am trying to take advantage of the fact they are multi tabling. Yeah know its the lowest stakes but these are the people I will be playing for 2 months lol.
 
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Last night I witnessed another mistake made by a player who was multitabling. A player was sitting out* in an 18 player SnG with blinds at t400 and most stacks at about t3000 - in other words the name of the game is blind stealing. When the sitter out was in the bigblind the multitabler was in the smallblind and three times the smallblind folded to an unopened pot. Now that is really not paying attention!

*The reason this guy was sitting out gives a lesson to us all. He had shoved with 99 and got called by a larger stack with KK. The flop came K42 rainbow. The only way our 99 can win this is if the other two nines come on turn and river, which they do. Unfortunately, he has already closed the table down assuming he was drawing dead. He reappeared twenty minutes later when his massive chip lead had dwindled down to average and he took some convincing that he had won the hand!
 
10058765

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I'm disappointed nobody else is adding to this thread. I think there are some enticing ideas floating around here that could be discussed further with new input.

Hi,
just see this thread now and the timing is perfect because I just started to take SST's seriously since yesterday.
Just played a few and indeed, same faces all over the place.
So now I understand why a HUD is important, why taking notes is important, why searching SC is important.
Anyway, you were telling about the reg pushing at u all the time.
Ok, I know you should only be calling with KK+ to the big stack.
However, if he does it every time, shouldn't we open up a little, stand him 1 time, to make it clear to him we're not going to fold all the time.
I mean, it could probably save you some blinds in the future, so actually just play an ev- hand by calling a little lighter to get u in a future ev+ situation ?
 
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Thanks for the reply. Regarding ICM, I believe the big profit players have a great understanding of ICM, and this is where their profits come in.

I just got done playing with a guy who has made about 30K in 22K games, which is very good at a buy-in of $6.50. And this guy is a bully late in the tourney! At 2 tables, he was chip leader, I was 2nd. We were on the bubble, and I was directly to his left. Every hand--and I mean every hand--he shoved me all in if it folded to him. Why is this smart? Because he knows I can't call unless I have AA, KK, or QQ (even QQ is questionable). This is a huge mistake most people make. calling an all in from the chip leader with AK or worse when in 2nd or 3rd place on the bubble is a HUGE mistake, and it drops your equity considerably. He knows this, so he can shove into me all day. And as long as these idiots are hanging onto their last 900 chips in hopes that I somebody else will get eliminated, I am relegated to being bullied, and will likely be forced into 2nd or 3rd place (if I'm lucky!)

Point is, this guy was playing approx. 18 tables while doing this. Now, I only play 4-8 tables at once, so don't ask me how he does it. I am working on my multi tabling skills, but I think I'm a long way off from playing more than 10.

Which guy is that?


Some good input on this thread guys. Enjoyed reading it all. I hope I see some more, I can't really give any input as I'm an amateur.
 
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Hi,
just see this thread now and the timing is perfect because I just started to take SST's seriously since yesterday.
Just played a few and indeed, same faces all over the place.
So now I understand why a HUD is important, why taking notes is important, why searching SC is important.
Anyway, you were telling about the reg pushing at u all the time.
Ok, I know you should only be calling with KK+ to the big stack.
However, if he does it every time, shouldn't we open up a little, stand him 1 time, to make it clear to him we're not going to fold all the time.
I mean, it could probably save you some blinds in the future, so actually just play an ev- hand by calling a little lighter to get u in a future ev+ situation ?
The thing you have to realize is that 99% of the regs I'm talking about don't get tricky, nor do they need to. There are enough bad players to profit off of. But in my situation, it is not profitable to call with anything less than a monster. It's hard to explain unless you understand ICM, but on the bubble when there are tiny stacks waiting to get eliminated, calling with something even like AK suited is a HUGE mistake. It will hurt your profits (your equity) in the longrun. You just kinda gotta lie down and take it until you break the bubble. Point is: Dude knows what he's doing, and he knows I know what I'm doing, and he exploits it.
 
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Which guy is that?


Some good input on this thread guys. Enjoyed reading it all. I hope I see some more, I can't really give any input as I'm an amateur.

his name is groams
 
straytfrush

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While regs are generally good players, there is a fair chance you will be playing a whole lot of hands with them if you multitable allowing you to get information. By gathering these stats and noticing their play you can begin to take advantage of them. In SNGs this information can become invaluable as it allows you to adjust your range accordingly rather than going in blind. Information is your friend, whether it means loosening up your range or playing Nash equilibrium at least you have a decent idea of what they are doing even if they are a great player. In the early stages it is difficult to play against people you haven't seen before.
 
10058765

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Point is: Dude knows what he's doing, and he knows I know what I'm doing, and he exploits it.[/quote]

Well I understand the ICM and what you say here is about it.
Just and only just in case he knows what you are doing he will be able to exploit it and shove every time.
So I suppose he sees you as a good reg too and does exactly what Bwammo says, playing accordingly to what he recognizes in you, as you would probably also do if you were the bigstack at his right, knowing he knows he can only call with a monster.
I'm afraid though (or should I be glad ?), loads of players just don't take this and will call me off with for example QJ.
I suppose this means, if I'm not sure somebody knows about ICM, I should be much more careful with my shoves if I am in this spot.
 
10058765

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his name is groams

Just outof criosity I looked him up at Sharkscope.
Av. ROI 11% Ability/100 = 77 (21013 games played)

Now I'm often at tables with a guy/gal with Av. ROI 7 % and Ability/100 = 67
(19449 games played, total profit about $8500).

Am I right this is not to bad either and in saying I should avoid this player, me being a beginner or should I just try to recognize how he plays and exploit that.
Fwiw, yesterday he was multi-tabling 15 tables.

What's supposed to be a good number for Ability/100 anyways ?
 
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Just outof criosity I looked him up at Sharkscope.
Av. ROI 11% Ability/100 = 77 (21013 games played)

Now I'm often at tables with a guy/gal with Av. ROI 7 % and Ability/100 = 67
(19449 games played, total profit about $8500).

Am I right this is not to bad either and in saying I should avoid this player, me being a beginner or should I just try to recognize how he plays and exploit that.
Fwiw, yesterday he was multi-tabling 15 tables.

What's supposed to be a good number for Ability/100 anyways ?

Good thoughts in this thread ...I too wondered what the Ability/ score meant???????????
 
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Point is: Dude knows what he's doing, and he knows I know what I'm doing, and he exploits it.

Well I understand the ICM and what you say here is about it.
Just and only just in case he knows what you are doing he will be able to exploit it and shove every time.
So I suppose he sees you as a good reg too and does exactly what Bwammo says, playing accordingly to what he recognizes in you, as you would probably also do if you were the bigstack at his right, knowing he knows he can only call with a monster.
I'm afraid though (or should I be glad ?), loads of players just don't take this and will call me off with for example QJ.
I suppose this means, if I'm not sure somebody knows about ICM, I should be much more careful with my shoves if I am in this spot.[/quote]

Maybe to a certain extent, but the other factor is that the bad players tend to become super tight around the bubbles anyways. It is incredible how some players just fold fold fold and then end up shoving with garbage because they realize they've gotten blinded down. Because of this, bullying is still a strong option. But if you are playing against a complete dumbass, I guess it would be prudent to tighten up a bit...but just a bit
 
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While regs are generally good players, there is a fair chance you will be playing a whole lot of hands with them if you multitable allowing you to get information. By gathering these stats and noticing their play you can begin to take advantage of them. In SNGs this information can become invaluable as it allows you to adjust your range accordingly rather than going in blind. Information is your friend, whether it means loosening up your range or playing Nash equilibrium at least you have a decent idea of what they are doing even if they are a great player. In the early stages it is difficult to play against people you haven't seen before.

Certainly I agree with that. A lot of these regs are pretty much break even on sharkscope. I have no clue why they are playing 20 tables at once... but they play this supertight style that is so easy to read.
 
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I'm at the point right now :/. I multitable 12, but I've only been breaking even the past few weaks. I need to find out where I'm going wrong.
 
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Just outof criosity I looked him up at Sharkscope.
Av. ROI 11% Ability/100 = 77 (21013 games played)

Now I'm often at tables with a guy/gal with Av. ROI 7 % and Ability/100 = 67
(19449 games played, total profit about $8500).

Am I right this is not to bad either and in saying I should avoid this player, me being a beginner or should I just try to recognize how he plays and exploit that.
Fwiw, yesterday he was multi-tabling 15 tables.

What's supposed to be a good number for Ability/100 anyways ?

Players like Groams should definitely make you think twice before you enter into a pot with them...but as far as avoiding them completely?...that's a tad unreasonable unless they are sitting in a SNG with many other regs of their ilk. Each good regular has roughly 38-40% ITM rate without fail...so each time he sits down you will see him on the bubble roughly half the time. Just by himself, that's fine...he might get a big stack here and there and run the tournament over, but usually that won't be the case. Now...if you add another couple regulars who are equally talented into the mix, now we've got a game we should probably table select out of. For instance, 3 players all with 40% ITM rates in the same SNG will usually result in 2 of them being 4-5 handed most of the time, and sometime all 3 will remain. If you are also a good player with 40% ITM rate...you're now in a situation where 4 of the 9 players are good regulars and you are all likely to still be hanging around from 4-6 handed. That's a problem :)

As for the Ability factor...it's a relatively useless statistic that is merely a formula combining the amount of games played, the average buyin of the games, and the total ROI from those games. There are many ways to have a higher or lower ability factor than is true to describe you. Typically you'll see every regular who plays at a particular level with almost the same ability level...primarily because they all put in volume and they all play at the same stakes. It's a pretty useless stat to be honest hehe

Certainly I agree with that. A lot of these regs are pretty much break even on sharkscope. I have no clue why they are playing 20 tables at once... but they play this supertight style that is so easy to read.

Some people thrive in a work environment that demands constant attention and proper reaction...while other people thrive in a factory type environment, just performing the same basic tasks on a daily basis. Most people (the sheep of the world) tend to fall into the later category and have no problem sitting there at a computer screen pressing the same buttons and reacting the same way to every situation they see. The benefits of this action are...rakeback/bonuses/all that good stuff...also you get the pleasure of never having to make a decision because the "charts" tell you everything to do lol
 
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As for the Ability factor...it's a relatively useless statistic that is merely a formula combining the amount of games played, the average buyin of the games, and the total ROI from those games. There are many ways to have a higher or lower ability factor than is true to describe you. Typically you'll see every regular who plays at a particular level with almost the same ability level...primarily because they all put in volume and they all play at the same stakes. It's a pretty useless stat to be honest hehe
I keep trying to convince a buddy of mine that ability/100 is a ridiculous stat and he should concern himself more with his ROI and avg. buyin. He remains unconvinced :D
 
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Good points...just wish there was an easier way to identify these folks without teh legwork of looking them up.

I guess one should color code them once identified in whatever way for future purposes. My best, Wally
 
bonflizubi

bonflizubi

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Good points...just wish there was an easier way to identify these folks without teh legwork of looking them up.

I guess one should color code them once identified in whatever way for future purposes. My best, Wally

There is. If they are slow making decision and running like 10/8 on the hud in a turbo SNG, they're multitabling and a reg.

Also, if they are on your immed right and give your BB a walk a few times from the SB when blinds are low, they are a reg.

If you are playing on stars and they have a whole bunch of those stars on display on their avatar, they are a reg.

And for you guys wondering why they would play so many tables, realize that 5% ROI x 15 tabling 8 hours a day + 27% rakeback + site bonuses = $$$$. It might be mindless work, but like bwammo said, some people are happy to push buttons to make money.
 
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