A question about bet size playing against draws

I Live Poker

I Live Poker

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I have been facing problems and received many different opinions.
I have always played to protect myself against draws on connected and well-suited boards, but I have noticed that it is not worth making a size too high because micro limits and freerolls opponents do not give up on their draws.
I received advice from a friend on a team about making very low sizes like 27% of the pot 30%, because if I do 60% 70% "I used to over pot in some situations" I will only spend money and the villain will pay any form your bet until the last street, so he advised me to play that way with low sizes which seems a little weak to me, but on the other hand I am noticing that I am losing a lot of chips protecting my ready hands against draws. What would they have to say to me? Thanks in advance!
 
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moshie

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In micros and free rolls ,they don't seem to care if they go broke on the draws. ex I raised pre flop for 4.5 bb with KK flop come up queen high with 2 hearts. Opponent
bet full pot into me with 78 of hearts. I put him all in on the flop. He called of his stack and missed. If I bet 30% of pot on flop and 2/3 pot on the turn they are still coming. They want to play high variance double or bust.
 
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popstani

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I have been facing problems and received many different opinions.
I have always played to protect myself against draws on connected and well-suited boards, but I have noticed that it is not worth making a size too high because micro limits and freerolls opponents do not give up on their draws.
I received advice from a friend on a team about making very low sizes like 27% of the pot 30%, because if I do 60% 70% "I used to over pot in some situations" I will only spend money and the villain will pay any form your bet until the last street, so he advised me to play that way with low sizes which seems a little weak to me, but on the other hand I am noticing that I am losing a lot of chips protecting my ready hands against draws. What would they have to say to me? Thanks in advance!



I agree with your friend, specially in freerolls and micros, depending on the opponent I sometimes check on the flop with draws, but mainly bet 30%, 40-50% on the turn, and evaluate on the river. Most of the time we all miss draws, so villain will miss to, but if a draw completes, in micros and freerolls, it’s time to fold, in 90% of hands is not a bluff. If we bet small, we lose small amount of chips.
 
swerdnase

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I disagree. If your opponents aren't going to fold their draws, doesn't it make sense to make them pay the maximum to beat you? You are costing yourself equity when you're ahead for fear of losing a big pot, but the percentages are in your favor.
 
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Delfino

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I have always played to protect myself against draws on connected and well-suited boards, but I have noticed that it is not worth making a size too high because micro limits and freerolls opponents do not give up on their draws.

If they do not give up it's your gain. Bet even more to make pot odds even worse for them. If they still call you should be happiest man on the world. Continue to bet even more. But not more than it would make them fold.

In poker your goal is not to win every pot possible. Your goal is to make your opponents make the biggest mistake possible every time. They make a big mistake calling against odds and the more they call the bigger mistake they make.

When the flop comes and you have a made hand and they have a draw - treat the pot as yours and calculate from that point considering it's 0 gain.. If they fold your bet - you earn nothing. If they call a small bet with correct odds, you are actually losing money from your insecured pot. If they call against their odds, you are actually earning money, making the pot bigger when you are favored to win.

On the contrary if they fold every draw even after smaller bets it's not good for you because they don't let you earn money with your made hand. In that case you should bluff to counter them and make them willing to call more.
 
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NicoVlopez

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I disagree with what your friend says. Precisely what we are looking for is that they pay the maximum possible with their projects. If they call our 66% bet, the next time we bet the pot, since in the long term we will be making a lot of profit. It is important to understand that what matters to us is the money we made them invest when they don't connect their projects. If we see that the projects are completed, then we evaluate the situation, perhaps with a check / fold we will lose that pot, but in the long term we will be winning.
 
rastapapolos

rastapapolos

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Yeah good question, for me if i know that Villain isn't folding his hand i'm putting him allin, if he call he's only 4-1 to win, so he don't have the right odds. and if he call :
4 time i double my stack and 1 time i'm busto. last time i had AK after opening x3 i had 2 callers, flop came Axx with 2 diamonds, i jamed and had the two covered, i knew that one of them will call and effectively one had the flush draw and called my Ace holds i busted him.
when deep in tournament i play cautiousely, i bet half the pot wich give them 3to1 odds, wich isn't correct to call. if you bet 1/3 of the pot you give them the right odds 4to1. So it depends on the opponent that you play. sometimes if the 3rd flush card hit the T or the R they might bluff you cause in these mtts (micro and freeroll) there are no rules, you can put the best players in the worlds they will strugle winning them.
You have to play your hand very fast (allin or fold strategy) especially in the begining, once you have a stack play differently.
 
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1nsomn1a

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Draw is just a hand with a good potential for strengthening, it is not a ready hand and often you will not have anything on your hands by the river, I think you should always use the chance to see the next card for free. You don't have to bet against calling stations, because if you collect your hand on the river, they will often pay you. Against thinking players, a check on the flop with subsequent bets on the turn and river, even if there is no draw, will look convincing. At a distance, it is the draw bets that become particularly noticeable.:)
 
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GIB

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I think in this case, notes on the players will play a big role, your experience and ability will adapt to your opponents. One player will fold to a small stack, the other will surrender only on the second street, etc. The main thing is that other players could not read you.
 
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Oxinthewater

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If they do not give up it's your gain. Bet even more to make pot odds even worse for them. If they still call you should be happiest man on the world. Continue to bet even more. But not more than it would make them fold.

In poker your goal is not to win every pot possible. Your goal is to make your opponents make the biggest mistake possible every time. They make a big mistake calling against odds and the more they call the bigger mistake they make.

When the flop comes and you have a made hand and they have a draw - treat the pot as yours and calculate from that point considering it's 0 gain.. If they fold your bet - you earn nothing. If they call a small bet with correct odds, you are actually losing money from your insecured pot. If they call against their odds, you are actually earning money, making the pot bigger when you are favored to win.

On the contrary if they fold every draw even after smaller bets it's not good for you because they don't let you earn money with your made hand. In that case you should bluff to counter them and make them willing to call more.

Could not have put this better. Unless it's a massive draw, you're ahead, so build the pot as much they'll let you and don't worry about the times they make their draw, because you'll profit in the long term.

Be also aware that opponents won't always be on draws just because there are 2 cards of a suit on the flop, or a few connected cards. You'd need to bet the pot to correctly charge an outside straight draw, but some hands like mid pair may not pay this, so consider pre-flop action and the players when deciding what to go with.
 
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Kush

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The real thing to take away from this is that they don't always have the flush draw. You have to think about your opponents entire range. You literally can't "play against a draw". You don't know you opponents cards. What if they have top pair, bad kicker? Sometimes they have a gut shot or middle pair or even Ace high. What sizing would those holdings call? I c bet smallish with almost 100% of my range when in position. People tend to call small bets with all those hands. Sometimes I give up on the turn when bluffing the flop, but that'll get you a free river. If the flush comes in on the turn I continue to bet small with top pair etc. and they almost always check raise with the flush and I can fold. At smaller stakes basically no one check raises as a bluff and if they just call and try to slow play it, I can always just check back on the river if I feel like that's the best play.
 
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fundiver199

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Against people, who chase after any silly draw, a large solid turn bet generate heaps of value. Its important to remember, that when we bet for value the main goal is to get worse hands to call. The main goal is not to make them fold, if by doing so they are actually playing perfect against us. Of course they will then hit their miracle card on the river sometimes, but this is why, it is important to remember, that poker is a long term game.

Also the human brain play tricks on us here. We tend to notice it a lot, when we get drawn out on, because in the short term it emotionally suck. However we dont notice it, when the opponent fold his busted draw to our river bet. And we also dont notice it very much, when we check back river for pot control and win at showdown.
 
thehangdude

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When I see a flop with flush/straight potential (and think villain might chase), I usually bet around 40% which gives them fair odds to chase both streets. But when a brick hits the turn, I increase my bet (to as much as pot or more) to give them horrible odds on calling the turn. If a scare card hits the turn, I can back away without spending more and usually still see the river.

I don't want to see a scare card on the river, because a big bet leaves me two bad choices, fold a large pot or hero call a large bet. Also giving them fair odds on the flop doesn't build the pot so large you can't call a scare turn card on the river, if you think it is a bluff.
 
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UkoChebuko

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"but I have noticed that it is not worth making a size too high because micro limits and freerolls opponents do not give up on their draws."


I can't find a logic, sorry. Make the size higher then...:D. Go All in...What is the problem!? I can't understand.
 
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CaptainXL

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How sure are you that you have the best hand? If you have the nuts, often going all in is good. If not, you have two problems you have to balance.
 
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UkoChebuko

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Are you talking to me!?
Playing with big, often large, huge bets is the right play at this limits and vs this kind of players. Or All in. Or check-raise All in. If you put in his range many combos draw, then you have a very easy decision on the river. Depends on the card.
 
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mollymaggie

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I'm not big on betting out chasing a hand, That type of playing is a sure way of losing your bank. Instead, I make them pay when my hand hits a lot more fun in that
 
Alekxandrovi3

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It can be scary to place bets that usually may refuse to pay. If someone shows that they can pay me most of the bank on the river, I always try to use it. If I try to make a flush draw on a board that is not profitable to call a player who can collect a flush. If the bank is doing 4000, I’ll make 1500. If I’m doing 1000, I’ll make 400.
 
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