A not so common occurrence (I thought)

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KMcoyote3

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So I need help cardschat. This is probably the 5th time this has happened to me and before you think that this is a sob story it really isn't. I just need help in recognizing when someone has flopped something big like trips. The only reason I ask is because of this recent hand that knocked me out 5 spots before the money in a 4.40 rush tourney on fulltilt.

Hero: Ace-King raises in position, one caller on BB.

Flop: 8-K-K

Villain checks, Hero bets, gets reraised.

Calls.

Villain pushes all in on turn, Hero calls.

Villain has pocket 8's.


This is probably the 3 or 4th time this has happened to me both live and online in the past month. All I am looking for is a way to recognize when to get away from huge flops. Also was it a good idea to gamble all my chips away right before the payout? I honestly just felt like he had the 4th king.
 
c9h13no3

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All I am looking for is a way to recognize when to get away from huge flops.
I realize you're a new player, but do you really realize the absurdity of this statement? You flopped a huge hand, and you got all in. If he stacks off with KQ and 88, then you'll win this in the long run. And our opponent almost certainly has other hands in his range that we beat (KJ, KT, K9, 99-TT, maybe flush draws, bluffs).

Board: Ks Kd 8c
54.848% { AcKh }
45.152% { 88, KQs, KQo }

One of the dumbest things newbies do when they first start playing poker is they look for reasons to fold big hands. Don't! You will cooler people just as much as they cooler you in the long run. Focusing on value betting correctly, or learning pot control principles are far more important at the stakes you're playing.

Also, post hands like this, in the Tournament Hand Analysis Forum. You'll get better analysis there. But sob stories like this usually don't make for good hand analysis posts (and yes, this is a sob story).
 
The PoolBoy

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cant get away from that hand....its negitive ev to do so. Ya just got out luckboxed...it happens.
 
dj11

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there is no known way to recognize that your opponent has out-flopped you.

I suggest you don't spend a whole lot of time looking for it. Once any hand gets past the 2 pair stage, you actually are in fairly rare territory, and thinking you might have laid that hand down is borderline insanity. Yeah it happens, there is an outrageous vid on YouTube about a AA,KK, QQ, TT,** hand where the guy with the KK folded to the outrageous betting preflop, and would have won over the QQ guy who flopped his set.

If you look too hard for that non-existent online tell, you will find it! Funny finding something that doesn't exist....you will develop doubt and it will hurt your game. Better to learn to shrug of those bad beats.

You played your hand right, and so did your villain.
 
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Money11Charlie

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if you play some free rolls you will be able to feel out the program a little bit better.On the flop you need to assume that he has and eight or pockets.The chances are greater for him to have an eight or pockets than kings
 
Kountess

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So I need help cardschat. This is probably the 5th time this has happened to me and before you think that this is a sob story it really isn't. I just need help in recognizing when someone has flopped something big like trips. The only reason I ask is because of this recent hand that knocked me out 5 spots before the money in a 4.40 rush tourney on fulltilt.

Hero: Ace-King raises in position, one caller on BB.

Flop: 8-K-K

Villain checks, Hero bets, gets reraised.

Calls.

Villain pushes all in on turn, Hero calls.

Villain has pocket 8's.


This is probably the 3 or 4th time this has happened to me both live and online in the past month. All I am looking for is a way to recognize when to get away from huge flops. Also was it a good idea to gamble all my chips away right before the payout? I honestly just felt like he had the 4th king.

I don't think its a sob story, the guy up top is kind of rude. Usually they go all in like your opponent did. You have to fold. Never stay married to a hand that's what I got for you!
 
Kountess

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Oo yaa + this has happened to many plenty of times & I learned to fold. Their trying to double up look at it as if you were in his/her shoes, you would go all in too right??
 
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The_Pup

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So I need help cardschat. This is probably the 5th time this has happened to me and before you think that this is a sob story it really isn't. I just need help in recognizing when someone has flopped something big like trips. The only reason I ask is because of this recent hand that knocked me out 5 spots before the money in a 4.40 rush tourney on fulltilt.

Hero: Ace-King raises in position, one caller on BB.

Flop: 8-K-K

Villain checks, Hero bets, gets reraised.

Calls.

Villain pushes all in on turn, Hero calls.

Villain has pocket 8's.


This is probably the 3 or 4th time this has happened to me both live and online in the past month. All I am looking for is a way to recognize when to get away from huge flops. Also was it a good idea to gamble all my chips away right before the payout? I honestly just felt like he had the 4th king.

From this I guess you haven't been playing long, which is fine - we all have to start somewhere. You are going to have to get used to it as it will happen a lot.

But if you know how many times you have been on the wrong end of flops I bet you cannot tell me how many times you have been on the right end. Can you recall a hand where the villain did exactly the same with KQ, A8, JJ etc? Equally, would you have posted this hand if your A hit on the turn? We tend to remember the hands we lose and not the ones we win since they hurt more and if they send us out of a tourney they can gnaw away at us for ages.

What I am getting at is that you have probably been faced with this decision 20 times, lost 5 and won 15 - to me that is a winning strategy. But because there is a focus on the one's lost you need to be careful how you respond to the experience.

I do not put myself above anyone in this respect - in a STT last night I went from chip leader 3 handed to the rail when my AdQd lost to 78o and next hand my KsJs lost to J6o. I have no idea what hands got me to chip leader in the first place. But what I do know is that in the long run I am winning that tournament.

Don't worry about this hand, it's a standard cooler.
 
lektrikguy

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I don't think its a sob story, the guy up top is kind of rude. Usually they go all in like your opponent did. You have to fold. Never stay married to a hand that's what I got for you!

So your advice is fold top set/top kicker???Really??I want to play with you in any stakes. There is NO WAY I'm folding EVER EVER. This is terrible advice. You play poker to hit these kinds of hands. If he has 88 then today is not your day. If the next hand is the exact same I'd shove again. And again. Take the cooler and move on.
 
Kountess

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So your advice is fold top set/top kicker???Really??I want to play with you in any stakes. There is NO WAY I'm folding EVER EVER. This is terrible advice. You play poker to hit these kinds of hands. If he has 88 then today is not your day. If the next hand is the exact same I'd shove again. And again. Take the cooler and move on.


Not just to fold top set!!! If he goes all in and you have a feeling I guess. I don't mean everytime fold fold. Sorry if there was some misunderstanding! Any other questions just ask...
 
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cAPSLOCK

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It's "trips" really... and you cant fold it unless you SAW his cards.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Im a new player so maybe my opinion doesn't warrant an answer. However, this is an easy one for me to answer myself!

I would of called his all-in bet, why are people saying fold at this point? If i got re-rasied preflop, with Ace-King i'd of guessed (if early in tournaments) he either had AA,KK,QQ or bluffing of course. You called, i don't think i'd of called, i think i'd of tried a re-raise again, should of had him put down 88's, however micro-limits i see people will go all-in preflop with as low as a pair of 2's hoping to flop trips..

After the flop, you couldn't of got any better (well obviously Ace instead of 8, but thats highly unlikely!)

Anyway, your hand was unbeatable (I would of been very confident to call any all-in bet at this point)...i'd of never guessed he had the trip eights when you got put all-in. Maybe possibly a King-queen... definitely not king-8 preflop with being re-raised unless you're playing a complete idiot.. You had best hand at this point and highest kicker. For him to go all-in like he did, i'd of guessed either complete bluff or he also had Ace-King..very easy call indeed!!

You played it well and he played it bad in my opinion and got very lucky indeed..

You was very unlucky
 
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Im a new player so maybe my opinion doesn't warrant an answer. However, this is an easy one for me to answer myself!

I would of called his all-in bet, why are people saying fold at this point? If i got re-rasied preflop, with Ace-King i'd of guessed (if early in tournaments) he either had AA,KK,QQ or bluffing of course. You called, i don't think i'd of called, i think i'd of tried a re-raise again, should of had him put down 88's, however micro-limits i see people will go all-in preflop with as low as a pair of 2's hoping to flop trips..

After the flop, you couldn't of got any better (well obviously Ace instead of 8, but thats highly unlikely!)

Anyway, your hand was unbeatable (I would of been very confident to call any all-in bet at this point)...i'd of never guessed he had the trip eights when you got put all-in. Maybe possibly a King-queen... definitely not king-8 preflop with being re-raised unless you're playing a complete idiot.. You had best hand at this point and highest kicker. For him to go all-in like he did, i'd of guessed either complete BLUFF or he also had Ace-King..very easy call indeed!!

You played it well and he played it bad in my opinion and got very lucky indeed..

You was very unlucky

have

That many 'ofs' begins to irritate me.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Sorry, English is my 3rd language. If there was a a better French or Bosnian poker forum, I'd chat on there! For now, you will just have to bear with my bad grammar.. :)

ps: Better still, if you can communicate better in French or Bosnian, i'd be more than glad to speak to you in that language, would be easier for me!
 
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cAPSLOCK

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I have seen the two used interchangeably. But I really like the distinction. The way you play flopped top set, vs flopped trips is potentially very different.

In this case it's just semantics, because the way to play them will be the same.

The goal is to get all the chips in the pot.
 
Lilli3

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But if you know how many times you have been on the wrong end of flops I bet you cannot tell me how many times you have been on the right end. Can you recall a hand where the villain did exactly the same with KQ, A8, JJ etc? Equally, would you have posted this hand if your A hit on the turn? We tend to remember the hands we lose and not the ones we win since they hurt more and if they send us out of a tourney they can gnaw away at us for ages.

What I am getting at is that you have probably been faced with this decision 20 times, lost 5 and won 15 - to me that is a winning strategy. But because there is a focus on the one's lost you need to be careful how you respond to the experience.
When this finally clicked for me, it helped me greatly to move from being overly cautious where the situation didn't warrant it. It makes it easier to assess the situation with a balanced mindset instead of a fearful one.

I agree with those who think you played it correctly. Maybe it will help for you to be attentive when the situation plays out as a win...perhaps keep a general sort of tally for a bit of time to get that more balanced perspective that The_Pup mentions.

I recall the "looking for reasons to fold" mindset and, once and a while, find myself slipping into that mode. But it gets easier with time and awareness and having confidence in my hand comes much more readily now.
 
lektrikguy

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When this finally clicked for me, it helped me greatly to move from being overly cautious where the situation didn't warrant it. It makes it easier to assess the situation with a balanced mindset instead of a fearful one.

I agree with those who think you played it correctly. Maybe it will help for you to be attentive when the situation plays out as a win...perhaps keep a general sort of tally for a bit of time to get that more balanced perspective that The_Pup mentions.

I recall the "looking for reasons to fold" mindset and, once and a while, find myself slipping into that mode. But it gets easier with time and awareness and having confidence in my hand comes much more readily now.

It is really easy to look for the hands that beat you. Once you start looking for the hands that you can beat(I'm not talking about this hand really since it's an easy shove) and learn how they play them you build up your confidence in your game.
 
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zingbust

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I agree with Kountess, fold cause you know he was holding 88 or K8, you just knew it, but didn't want to believe it. The way the hand went is, as you say,
Villain checks, Hero bets, gets reraised.
Now, if you had said, "Villain checks, Hero bets, gets check-raised", that's different, but since the villain or someone else re-raised, that implies there was another raise in there by some other unmentioned player. Since you are now faced with a raise and a re-raise, one of those players is surely holding 88 or K8 and the correct answer is to fold. Only Kountess and I understood this, the rest of you missed it.
 
lektrikguy

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I agree with Kountess, fold cause you know he was holding 88 or K8, you just knew it, but didn't want to believe it. The way the hand went is, as you say,
Now, if you had said, "Villain checks, Hero bets, gets check-raised", that's different, but since the villain or someone else re-raised, that implies there was another raise in there by some other unmentioned player. Since you are now faced with a raise and a re-raise, one of those players is surely holding 88 or K8 and the correct answer is to fold. Only Kountess and I understood this, the rest of you missed it.


WHAT?? If you will fold trip Kings with an ace kicker to a reraise then I want you two on my table. I will bluff you all day. He will in most cases be holding the other king, or A8, or something like that. If you truly believe that then prepare to donate every time you play. Like I said, the reason you play poker is to hit hands like this. If you fold them because your opponent MIGHT have one of 2 hands that beat you then I got nothing more to say to you. You'll just have to learn.
 
atlantafalcons0

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I would never fold this flop.
 
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The_Pup

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Sorry, English is my 3rd language. If there was a a better French or Bosnian poker forum, I'd chat on there! For now, you will just have to bear with my bad grammar.. :)

ps: Better still, if you can communicate better in French or Bosnian, i'd be more than glad to speak to you in that language, would be easier for me!

S'il vous plaît accepter mes excuses Ramdeebam - Je ne veux pas se moquer si l'anglais n'est pas votre langue maternelle. Il est généralement des locuteurs natifs qui écrivent 'should of' au lieu de 'should have'.

Good on you for managing 3 languages - I can barely manage a second.
 
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onemorechance

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I don't think its a sob story, the guy up top is kind of rude. Usually they go all in like your opponent did. You have to fold. Never stay married to a hand that's what I got for you!

Errrmm no he analysed it perfectly. Seriously you should learn from 'the guy up top', he's rather good
 
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WHAT?? If you will fold trip Kings with an ace kicker to a reraise then I want you two on my table. I will bluff you all day. He will in most cases be holding the other king, or A8, or something like that. If you truly believe that then prepare to donate every time you play. Like I said, the reason you play poker is to hit hands like this. If you fold them because your opponent MIGHT have one of 2 hands that beat you then I got nothing more to say to you. You'll just have to learn.
Even though you appeared to read my post and understand it, I see that you really didn't. When you said "He will in most cases be holding the other king, or A8" etc. instead of "They both will in most cases..." and then when you again said "your opponent MIGHT..." instead of "your opponents MIGHT both..." that proves you didn't even understand what only Kountess and me understood. There were two opponents not just one. Therefore it is most likely that one of those two opponents was holding a nut or 2nd nut hand, otherwise there wouldn't have been a raise and a re-raise in there. Folding is the only option, as Kountess correctly pointed out.
 
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