Was this a good time to push?

It is late in a live tournament with a $300 buy-in. Top 63 get paid and the next pay jump is just hit with 12 more to go before the next pay jump. The table is 8 handed, playing very tight and I just folded 13 hands waiting to push my once 10 BBs which are now 8 BBs and getting ready to be 7.

I am UTG, with the tournament leader on my right with over 100 BBs. I get A5s and shove. It folds to the BB who calls with 55, he holds and I am out in 45 after 9 hours of play.

I am normally a cash player and this is my first $300 tournament. A5s is very marginal UTG, but I figured I won't make the next pay jump and it is best to double early.

Not being results oriented, was it a good, bad or so so play to shove A5s UTG?

So late in a tourney with a short stack you're right it's basically shove or fold but you can still make calls about when and what to shove. Normally for me this is my shove range for this situation:

EP: 77+, AJo+, ATs+ (no suited connectors just too much trouble in early usually)

MP: 55+, A9o+, A6s+, KTs+, T9s+

LP: 22+, A6o+, A2s+, K7s+, Q9s+ (basically just stuff you can reasonably argue could hit something decent if the blinds call)

and of course only shove into unopened pots, and to answer your actual question, I think you could have waited to shove a better hand in a better position but it's not like it was bad either, and on the spot I might have done the same, but hey congrats on the cash regardless!

i love to push on button when blinds are very high

emil4707 said:

i love to push on button when blinds are very high

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and when you get a good hand: D

With 7 BBs and UTG (blinds next hand) you practically have to shove ATC at that point and know you're likely going to get called. So, the push is pretty standard at that point.

AviCKter said:

Was there antes in play? How much? What is the blind structure/round length (10-mins, 20-mins, an hour)? How many hands per blind level were you witness on an average?

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There were antes, 12.5% I think. The tournament started at 25 rounds and then went to 30 minutes rounds. At the beginning it fairly fast, slowed down near the bubble and the pace picked up when it broke. The small stacks were pushing and the big stacks were folding or calling. On average I'd guess 2-1/2 minutes.

TheBigFinn said:

There were antes, 12.5% I think. The tournament started at 25 rounds and then went to 30 minutes rounds. At the beginning it fairly fast, slowed down near the bubble and the pace picked up when it broke. The small stacks were pushing and the big stacks were folding or calling. On average I'd guess 2-1/2 minutes.

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Technically, its a Push.

But with the slow pace, with the limited information (on the field, I'm assuming the field to be weak and two big blind per round, assuming 2 mins/hand), its a marginal spot.
I might have let it go and wait for a better spot. You've to dodge a lot of callers, like 8, to be precise. Giving them a 10% calling range, you can find that your getting called more than 50% of the time and against a 10% range you've 33% equity. So, yeah: FOLD, is my opinion of this particular occasion.

In a online tournament, its a SNAP shove, OR like trent32la puts it: "snap shove so fast sometimes you misclick and fold"

TheBigFinn said:

Not being results oriented, was it a good, bad or so so play to shove A5s UTG?

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If I were in your position, I pushed

Depend on your chip and position

It depends in particular on the layout, let's not forget that much depends on the individual hands and happiness - as written in the book "Poker Mindset." You need to protect your stack, at this stage.

bra01 said:

Depend on your chip and position

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8bb and UTG. He put it in his OP.

It's a standard shove, with 8bb you don't have much time to wait for a better hand, if you get called by better hand you still have 3 outs unless your opponent has aces.

In that position, that's what I usually do, and I usually lose. BUT, lots of people do the same thing and win. I know, cuz I lose to them all the time. KK only beats A5 if an Ace doesn't come up.

The best theory is to try to win.

So push.

If you wanna play "I might double up after the blinds and then double up again shortly after that," then by all means.

But the object of a tournament is to want to win it.

So...what's your theory?

that are just shove cards in that early position

Thanks for the response. Glad to hear a variety of opinions, I hadn't considered the idea that everyone with a +10% hand would call and that I had to make it past 6 chances at a 10% hand.

My thoughts were:
1. Better to push before the blinds hit me to get 1.5 more BBs in the pot.
2. Even as a 40/60 dog My equity would be close.
3. After the blinds past I would be down to just over 6BBs (counting antes).
4. I had 10 to 15 more hands till the next level where I'd be well under 3 BBs.
5. Pushing UTG might get more respect.
6. I won't make the next level unless I doubled in the next 8 hands.

Just curious why you waited until you got to 10BB's before thinking about shoving pre. I don't want to wait until that point because you give yourself less fold equity than had you started doing this at, say, 15BB's.

But I say this not knowing if you just hit the money or if you were ITM for quite some time.

As a general rule, I don't want to wait until that point - I want to have a stack where I can get people to fold better hands because calling would be that much more costly stack wise to them. You can then have a wider shoving range because it's going to take a much better hand to call. Given that your table was pretty tight, you probably would have been able to successfully get shoves in and build up a healthier stack.

TheBigFinn said:

Thanks for the response. Glad to hear a variety of opinions, I hadn't considered the idea that everyone with a +10% hand would call and that I had to make it past 6 chances at a 10% hand.

My thoughts were:
1. Better to push before the blinds hit me to get 1.5 more BBs in the pot.
2. Even as a 40/60 dog My equity would be close.
3. After the blinds past I would be down to just over 6BBs (counting antes).
4. I had 10 to 15 more hands till the next level where I'd be well under 3 BBs.
5. Pushing UTG might get more respect.
6. I won't make the next level unless I doubled in the next 8 hands.

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All great reasons to shove UTG with <10 BBs.

Were there spots before this that you could've gotten it in, but didn't? Maybe good 3bet jam spots or open jam spots for 15 BBs?

I BU KK with append 15bbs and the villain utg comes with JJ and pays Flop KKA trun A river 5 I pull the pot and I get 30bbs and I come back to the game!

Im not sure maybe half of raise ,and tryto double up,maybe you shiould wait for all in..

Easy all-in, don't even think about it. Yes, if you get called you are in bad spot, but you are in bad spot already, and the only way to change it, to push hands like A5s from any position. I will fold it only if I knew there are a lot of players in tournaments with 2-3bb, that will be out soon, but I don't think that is the case with 45 people left.

Shumkoolie said:

Just curious why you waited until you got to 10BB's before thinking about shoving pre. I don't want to wait until that point because you give yourself less fold equity than had you started doing this at, say, 15BB's....

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I completely agree. I lost a small pot and got down to 10 bigs. I then went a round and a half waiting to get a top 20% hand to push.