4 betting light?

I realize that I pretty much never do this, and it is probably a leak in my game.

what is the weakest hand you have ever 4bet with?

I think for me it would be AQ

I aim to change that...but I need guidance. I don't really know how to go about adding a 4bet bluff to my game.

I assume it will be a button vs. BB type situation....hopefully I'm the button.

4-bet is depending of my and my opponent's stack. If I have big stack I sometimes do 4-bet even with 10-9 suited, or Q,J.

Salvete777 said:

4-bet is depending of my and my opponent's stack. If I have big stack I sometimes do 4-bet even with 10-9 suited, or Q,J.

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You needn't to have a great pocket hand to do 3-4 bet light, you just need to use that when the villian have the same stack than you or a little less, and use that just a few times... In the bubble is a nice way to win chips easily. but ofc, it is easier to do when you have big pocket hands. Just try

You're like me. I don't like to four bet light and I only 4-bet with TT+ and AQ (sometimes 99). You might need to just try and experiment (and I should too).

If you raise UTG+1 in full ring and someone three bets you from the cutoff, you can say to yourself "I know that the average person would give me credit for this UTG+1 raise, but other people know that I know this, therefore I could be raising light UTG+1" and this might be the reason why your opponent is three betting you. Then you can know that your opponent knows that you could be raising light and four bet light.

Just having a reason to four bet light (like when we get into the levelling wars part of it) can make it much easier to four bet light, especially in that example. If you've seen a person three bet a lot, then four betting them light seems fine especially if you have a tight image yourself.

missjacki said:

I realize that I pretty much never do this, and it is probably a leak in my game.

what is the weakest hand you have ever 4bet with?

.

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Weakest 4-bet 'ever'? idk... maybe 73s (for sure though > 53s, 65s, 98s, etc.)
It's very situationally dependent > history, stack sizes, etc. etc. (ie. stack sizes that put villain in a bad spot... where they'll most likely be 5-betting or folding).

If I have a tight table image and a decent stack I will definitely 4 bet some middle of the road hands like 9t suited or jq suited, maybe even kj os. The tricky part is getting out of it if necessary with minimal damage, which is sometimes hard to do.

The thing I wonder is how much of a leak you think this is. In your games, how often do you get 3bet in situations where you'd gain by 4betting more?

4bet/6bet 32s once

I got called, so I don't know what the is for tbh!

anyway, 4betting light in spots where you think opponents are exploiting you by 3betting light (most likely regs) so a lot of your 4bets are going to come from the BTN vs BB/SB or SB vs BB.

your 4bets aren't getting flatted often OOP, so 4bet blockers that you wouldn't flat IP.. so we'd flat KJs BTN vs a BB 3b vs our LP open and 4bet say A8s or something.

massive leak if you're not doing it imo

Arjonius said:

The thing I wonder is how much of a leak you think this is. In your games, how often do you get 3bet in situations where you'd gain by 4betting more?

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I think as I progress and start playing better players, it is quite a leak actually...mostly because of not getting action when I have a monster.


1) obviously the pots that I could take down by 4betting with weak hands will be bigger pots than stealing the blinds alone, and will keep me in the game longer

2) add a layer of depth/camoflauge for my value 4bets; might get me some action and get me 5bet on when I want it! Right now, if anybody is paying attention to my 4betting range they will pretty much realize it consists of QQ+ and they will know exactly how to play against me. they can jam it with AA and they can set mine with JJ or lower knowing pretty much exactly where they stand against me.

I'm gearing up for wsop this spring...last year all my tricks were old news and I felt outclassed. Getting prepared to play good players takes a different kind of thinking about your game.

missjacki said:

I think as I progress and start playing better players, it is quite a leak actually...mostly because of not getting action when I have a monster.

1) obviously the pots that I could take down by 4betting with weak hands will be bigger pots than stealing the blinds alone, and will keep me in the game longer

2) add a layer of depth/camoflauge for my value 4bets; might get me some action and get me 5bet on when I want it! Right now, if anybody is paying attention to my 4betting range they will pretty much realize it consists of QQ+ and they will know exactly how to play against me. they can jam it with AA and they can set mine with JJ or lower knowing pretty much exactly where they stand against me.

I'm gearing up for WSOP this spring...last year all my tricks were old news and I felt outclassed. Getting prepared to play good players takes a different kind of thinking about your game.

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I suspect that what you're saying isn't the full picture. For instance, you say that if you don't 4bet wider, the better players will be able to recognize your range and adjust accordingly. But if you do go wider, is the same thing not true? What's more, will you be farther out of your comfort zone in such situations, or will they?

Also, while you win more when you 4bet and get a fold than when you steal the blinds, these situations don't occur equally often, so comparing one time of each isn't fully appropriate. Plus you lose more when you get 5bet and fold. And will the good players 5bet you more or less often once they realize your 4bet range isn't nitty?

I'm in no position to gauge whether you're likely to help or hurt yourself in the WSOP if you decide to 4bet lighter. What I'm really getting at is that the decision has possible pros and cons that depend on various factors - how well this change fits the rest of your game, your ability relative to the fields, etc.

Scrover said:

Just having a reason to four bet light (like when we get into the levelling wars part of it) can make it much easier to four bet light, especially in that example. If you've seen a person three bet a lot, then four betting them light seems fine especially if you have a tight image yourself.

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This pretty much is what I would have written. As for hand range, you could have complete air if someone is getting out of hand. It's one of those spots where you can't kick yourself in the head if you're crushed, but def. a play you want to add to your arsenal.

Sorry to be a party pooper but i personally almost never 4 bet light. Unless it is in a tourney and im 4betting "lighter" FOR VALUE because i think villain is 3-betting light for a re-steal(and is capable of making a play like that). And this i do only when im on the button and i get 3bet from any of the blinds. Other than that i wouldn't advocate 4 bet bluffing for anyone that isn't an advanced player.

Arjonius said:

I suspect that what you're saying isn't the full picture. For instance, you say that if you don't 4bet wider, the better players will be able to recognize your range and adjust accordingly. But if you do go wider, is the same thing not true? What's more, will you be farther out of your comfort zone in such situations, or will they?

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yes. I see your point. I guess my thoughts on this are, it will be just 1 more tool in my arsenal....a tool that right now they have and I don't. They've got more ways to win a pot than me because I exclusively 4bet for value. In the beginning, I imagine that I would be playing outside my comfort zone and then eventually it would be natural. It was very strange for me to add "floating" to my post flop game because I wasn't used to it...now it doesn't phase me. I usually consider calling a Cbet to be just part of the cost of calling a preflop raise in position.

Also, while you win more when you 4bet and get a fold than when you steal the blinds, these situations don't occur equally often, so comparing one time of each isn't fully appropriate. Plus you lose more when you get 5bet and fold. And will the good players 5bet you more or less often once they realize your 4bet range isn't nitty?

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yes, I will lose more when I get 5bet and fold. This is true. I guess my thinking is there are very, very few players who are capable of 5bet bluffing preflop...I'm sure they are out there but I'm not going to worry too much about them. But there ARE lots and lots of players who 3bet light and I want to have multiple options for dealing with them. So, generally if I get 5bet I will give them credit for a good hand and hopefully I will lose less by 4betting preflop and folding than I would have by flatting and then firing 1 or 2 barrels on the flop... My bigger concern is NOT about getting 5 bet, but actually getting flatted and having to play a bloated pot with a weak hand....that makes me REALLY uncomfortable to think about that.

I'm in no position to gauge whether you're likely to help or hurt yourself in the WSOP if you decide to 4bet lighter. What I'm really getting at is that the decision has possible pros and cons that depend on various factors - how well this change fits the rest of your game, your ability relative to the fields, etc.

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right, yes. there are definitely trade offs anytime you expand your game to include new moves. 4betting light does NOT fit in with the rest of my game, which is why I don't do it. But that doesn't mean I can't evolve my game. I wouldn't expect this to show an immediate profit, as there are likely to be some growing pains with any new, aggressive move. I would like to do my experimenting now before I get to Vegas in 2 months...

vinylspiros said:

Sorry to be a party pooper but i personally almost never 4 bet light. Unless it is in a tourney and im 4betting "lighter" FOR VALUE because i think villain is 3-betting light for a re-steal(and is capable of making a play like that). And this i do only when im on the button and i get 3bet from any of the blinds. Other than that i wouldn't advocate 4 bet bluffing for anyone that isn't an advanced player.

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haha! I'm totally with you....my idea of 4betting light is AQo But just because we never use a move doesn't mean it has no place in our game... I believe it was Sklansky who said that the easiest chips you will ever make are when you are playing a style different from your natural style.

It is an advanced move that can get you into trouble but that can also be a great tool to have on your belt..

Remember that advanced moves are to be used against advanced players as anyone who does not understand what your 4 bet is suppose to represent also not many novice players are 3 bet bluffing unless its with J4 off and then are 5 bet shoving lol

Also you will need very good post flop skills as you will be playing inflated pots and when you miss every card seems to look scary..

missjacki said:

right, yes. there are definitely trade offs anytime you expand your game to include new moves. 4betting light does NOT fit in with the rest of my game, which is why I don't do it. But that doesn't mean I can't evolve my game. I wouldn't expect this to show an immediate profit, as there are likely to be some growing pains with any new, aggressive move. I would like to do my experimenting now before I get to Vegas in 2 months...

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I'm certainly not against the idea of adding more tools to your belt, including this one. That said, a question I've run into when I've experimented with plays primarily intended for use against better players than I usually face is one of relative utility. Depending on how seriously working to move up, am I better off to focus on other things that more directly apply to my current games?

There's no universally right answer. This topic does kind of hit home for me because I've experimented with 4betting more a couple of times. In my case, since I seldom try to play at high enough levels, the main benefit I can point to is improving my general poker knowledge rather than directly gaining by using this play.

7bet Q6s ftw

I saw this on TV a while ago, I watched this segment 4 times amazed how stone faced she was.

Wife says "What are you doing?? She's not THAT good looking".


EDIT:

I posted this because it is in a way related to this tread and some of the comments above

6-betting light w A6o vs. Shaun Deeb (WSOP MnEv. 2011)

Poker Orifice said:

6-betting light w A6o vs. Shaun Deeb (WSOP MnEv. 2011)

]

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Obviously rigged how else would he have known the 6 was coming on the river.. Typical JokerWSOPME stuff..

Besides shoving a6off over a 5 bet is standard =)

see....for me if I woulda 4bet light with that A6o and if it didn't immediately get me a fold, I would basically be done with the hand, unless they flatted and then something magical happened on the flop.

so...for my first attempts at 4betting light I am looking for spots where #1 the pot is heads up #2 I have position #3 I think they are 3betting light, likely because my raise looks like a late position steal. #4 they are not even close to pot committed #5 they are a player who is good enough to fold #6 I have a tight image at the table #7 this player is aware of my "tight" image and capable of adjusting accordingly.

let's take a pretend example:

blinds are 100/200 say it folds to my button and I raise to 500 with

SB Folds, BB re-pops it to 1,300. He has been doing this kinda stuff a lot and he is very aggressive. He has a total stack of ~20k. I'd put his range for 3betting at any Ace, K9+, any pocket pair, Q9s, QT+, J8s, J9s, JT+ and a few random suited connectors.

I 4bet to 3,000 off my stack of about 18k

if he folds, I just picked up 1,400 instead of 300 from winning the blinds.

now at this point, he may elect to just flat because of good pot odds and I won't really like that too much, but that is why I have position as back up. Pot contains 6,100 if he flats and a Cbet costs me about 3,500....so if I miss the flop he checks and I cbet I'll have nearly 40% of my stack in this pot. gulp....THIS is the scenario that scares me the most...if he check raises the flop I guess I have to fold..and I just lost 40% of my stack by "getting cute"... If he check calls the flop, I'll probably shut down on the turn and he'll bluff the river and I might have to make a hero call if I catch 1 pair or something?....or just sheepishly fold.

if he 5bets preflop I'm gone. I lose 3,000 out of 18,000 so 17% of my stack. I can live with that.

now take the same situation as above, but make me the cutoff and the Button is the player who 3 bets me...I'll just fold...at least for now while I'm getting my sea-legs.

now, take another pretend situation with almost the same hand, but with shorter stacks.

let's say blinds are 200/400 and my stack is about 10,000 and villain's stack is about 15,000.

It folds to my button, I raise to 1,000 with

SB folds. BB makes it 3,000 to go (so 20% of his stack).

I put him on the same range, of mostly bullshit and so I jam all in for my remaining 10k which means he has to call 7k so he is getting 1.94:1 on his call....but it represents so much of his stack, he probably can only call with the top of his range. he needs to have 34% equity to win for the pot odds to break even, plus all the metagame factors....he will probably fold any ace except AK or maybe AQ. He will probably fold 99 and lower and may even fold TT. He will definitely have to fold most hands that dominate me like A9 and AT and KT.

If he does happen to call with the top of his range, almost nothing in that range has a T or 9 in it, so I should be totally live. If he calls with AK I've got 40% equity, not too bad. The worst hand for me to be facing is TT...

thoughts on the short-ish stack 4bet all in bluff?

SeaRun said:

I saw this on TV a while ago, I watched this segment 4 times amazed how stone faced she was.

Wife says "What are you doing?? She's not THAT good looking".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaZ8VR4CqHo

EDIT:

I posted this because it is in a way related to this tread and some of the comments above

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haha! This is the exact hand that I watched before i texted my poker friends and I was like "watch this hand. do you ever 4bet light? what about 5bet light?" and they're like...."yeah, we 4bet light sometimes in the right situation but not 5bet" it was their response that got me thinking "dang. I need to add 4betting light to my game" and hence....this thread was born...

some critiques of Paneque's play: the 4bet light is a fine move, but I don't think he should have tried it out of position versus a strong, aggressive player. especially not holding an Ace which is most of the time going to be massively dominated any of the times that Liv flats. out of position + probably dominated = just fold it bro.

I think he may have fallen into the classic blunder of "I'm gonna outplay this girl with sheer aggression" which, any live female players will tell you is a real phenomenon. I have found, over the years that if something just doesn't feel right about a hand...if he is being just a little too obviously aggressive, and trying too hard to get me to fold, I go ahead and turn my hand into a bluff catcher and just keeping checking and calling down with hands as weak as 3rd pair and often take down a massive pot. sometimes it backfires on me, but it has won me far more chips than it has cost me. Liv Boeree has just taken this dynamic one step further. Why check-call these dudes who are trying to put you in your place, when you can just fight back and put them in THEIR place AND make them look stupid on TV!

If u want to fold ur 3betting opp, on the microlimits they'll never gonna do it. If someones 3bets, he'll always goes allin)

Learn to 9bet

You have to learn to 9bet sometimes. Sometimes the mind games can get really complicated and fun. It is sooooooo advanced. I'm probably the only player capable of doing it, because I'm on a level beyond all levels. Here is a hand example to show my capabilities:


$100/$50 at 9 handed table

I pretend to look at my cards and open to $240 UTG. Standard with anytwo given the correct image, stack sizes, and skillsets in my arsenal.

everyone folds to CO who repops it to $670. CO is a weak player that utilizes 3-betting to bully opponents. He 3-bets way too much and is inexperienced with 4-betting. It is too advanced for him at this point in his game.

BU re-raises to $1,250. The Button player is quite a skilled opponent and recognizes all the above and is probably 4-betting with any two cards

SB re-re-raises to $2,700. He knows the Button knows everything about CO. SB is one of the best players in the world

BB fell asleep waiting for each of us to take 20 minutes to make a decision and his blind was folded. (Who said mind games were easy?)

I am the best player in the world and I haven't even looked at my cards yet, because I'm playing the players. I immediately throw in an additional $10,000 6-bet to really put the pressure on. That's what you got to do. Be aggressive. They were all so worried about the CO they didn't see me coming.

CO is too weak to continue and folds. So typical. What a stupid person. DONK!

BU is a good player, but he can't withstand the pressure. He doesn't have the balls to 7-bet. He's too stubborn to fold though so he ends up calling. This is an acceptable play since all 3 of us can have any two cards at this point. BU player has now announced that he has a hand and is willing to put up a fight. This is where the real mind games begin.

(You were all probably thinking that these leveling wars were intense. To us players, this is a walk in the park. Button might be struggling a bit, but SB and I do this in our sleep).

SB reaches for more chips. "You wanna play big. Lets go!" SB softly pushes out $100,000 for an 8-bet. At this point it is unlikely for SB to be bluffing. But he knows that I know that. He also knows that I know all of that. I know that too. So does he. I know all of that too. He might know that I know that as well, but maybe not. Either way I'm not folding. BE THE AGGRESSOR!!

You have to be aggressive in order to win at poker. Aggression is key. Don't be a whiny ass bitch and fold all the time. Aggress them. Controlled aggression that uses deep thinking.

I ended up 9 betting to $412,000. SB was not prepared for this deep level. "Thought for sure you'd fold to my 8-bet" he announced in shame. He tossed his hand into the muck. "I never even looked at my cards" He continued to say. "I didn't either" said I.

The CO dummy reached into the muck. "I want to see what would have happened had you called." CO pulled out SB's mucked cards and exposed AA.

"OMG" said BU "You forgot to look at your cards before folding. Hahaha. That is so funny!"

"It didn't matter" SB announced. "You guys just don't get it do you. It is not the cards. It is the player. I was out played simple as that. I just didn't have what it took to match the caliber of my opponent."


SB and I may be the only people in the world to understand this deep leveling. We know about the exponential leveling of levels. To un-levels and imaginary sideways parallel levels. Levels o other dimensions.

Too this day I never look at my cards and I am a 30BB/100 player. I play by feel. I feel it out. No math no GTO. Booooo math. Boooooo GTO. Feel. Only feel.

You guys ------>

Me:

Don't aggro me. I'm so unreadable. I can out aggro the aggros. Aggressive poker wins. Who ever is more aggressive wins. The game is evolving. Evolve with it. Don't be a 3-bet/folding machine. Join 7-betting. 9-betting may be a bit hard for you. Most of you won't even make it there in your lifetime, but you can always work on your game and implement new things in your arsenal. I have a nice arsenal. Work on your arsenal people.

Think about things like. What are the effective stacks. People tendancies. LAG? TAG? LAG/TAG? LAGGY/TAGGY/BAG/DAGGY. Focus on VP$IP. PFR stats. Worship your HUD and it might be good to you. What are the blinds? What mood are the other player's in. Is someone tired? What is the player to your left's birthday? Is your table ethnically diverse? Is there old people? Is there smelly old people? Is there good smelling old people? Maniacs? Nits? Megga Nits? Multitablers? There is sooooooo much more dynamics. I'm not even discussing everything, but hopefully you've scratched the surface. Balance your ranges and consider equity.

P.S.
OMG! POSITION. I almost forgot it!

So - Since this has been bumped, how did the adding the 4 betting light to your game work out?

Added the 5 bet all in bluff to your game yet?