4 bet shove with QQ

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wilTurkey56

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$50 buy in, blinds 1000, 2000 (300)

Hero and villain have a little history. Villain is Bb, hero utg + 1

Hero raises to 5k, villain reraise to 14k, hero all in for 40k

Villain calls with similar stack and turns over a9 off. Hero likes the flop but the turn and the river bring an A.

Now a couple of thoughts of mine:
I want to get it in every time if villain is calling with that trash

However, if hero just calls, villain misses the flop, then hero can go all in and villain folds

Under those circumstances a lot of the time villain is holding aa, Aq, ak, kq, kk, jj with that 3 bet, so I am flipping 50% of the time so my reshove was a bad move all round

What are your thoughts about hero play and after hand analysis
 
J

JPainTrainSicko

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I like the 4bet shove. It puts the pressure back on villain and if he's 3 betting with hands like A9 you are going to be crushing his range. Which is great for you and let's him make the mistake of calling light like he did here. If you call and let him see a flop it sounds like he will make less mistakes and you give him an opportunity to out draw you. Sticking to the aggressive play with this opponent would be my default.
 
MattRyder

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I've lost enough of these (every single day I play) to trashy hands (that get lucky) that I have come to the conclusion that shoving pre-flop with anything other than AA (and then only against one, maybe two players) is counterproductive. I now much prefer to see the flop, and go from there. It's a lot more fun and a lot less risky.
 
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Chipsteal_jj

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The play should vary depending on the player who you are playing against. I'd say that the shove here was perfect since he should be folding hands like a9o and would generally call with AK AA KK AQ KQ etc and some pocket pairs.
With your positiion, since he raised you from BB, a call would also work and play the game post flop which is less risky.
 
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wilTurkey56

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I like the 4bet shove. It puts the pressure back on villain and if he's 3 betting with hands like A9 you are going to be crushing his range. Which is great for you and let's him make the mistake of calling light like he did here. If you call and let him see a flop it sounds like he will make less mistakes and you give him an opportunity to out draw you. Sticking to the aggressive play with this opponent would be my default.

Thanks for the reply. As it happens villain has accused me more than once of stealing her blinds, so I was in a perfect position to get some value. However I still cannot help but think if I'd just called I'm pretty sure she would have folded after the flop

Maybe it was the history between us thats making me think about this bust out more than others. I play 4/5 times a week but just started retrospectively analysing my game, and taking notes during to do some calculations afterwards to see where I folded/called incorrectly due to odds
 
quick

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I like the 4bet shove. It puts the pressure back on villain and if he's 3 betting with hands like A9 you are going to be crushing his range. Which is great for you and let's him make the mistake of calling light like he did here. If you call and let him see a flop it sounds like he will make less mistakes and you give him an opportunity to out draw you. Sticking to the aggressive play with this opponent would be my default.

I might be wrong here but I disagree given the stack sizes and the possibility of villain hitting an Ace on flop. Hero is over a 70% favorite pre flop to A9o. If hero was like 12 BB or less I'd say shove or fold of course.

So villain's reraise shows some strength, does she have AA, KK? Probably not because she would have donk shoved to your pre flop raise in this spot in a tourney so she probably has Ax Kx or something like 99-JJ. If you flat the re-raise and see a flop with no aces and no kings you have some room to maneuver. If hero is first to act on a safe board he can either put out a small feeler bet (maybe 1/3 pot and maybe find a fold if villain insta shoves ) or if he has villain read like a book then shove flop. If villain is first to act and checks hero can shove and take the pot down. If the flop brings a Q you're golden. I'm doubting this villain is floating overpairs or trying to do some fancy play here.
I think we're giving villain too much credit here that if she's 3 betting with A9 off suit then she's good enough to play the flop correctly, in fact if she misses the flop she's going to make mistakes.

I get that position here is critical and since hero is first to act it gives villain the power but it's likely villain was donk raising pre flop hoping to spike an Ace and take it down. And since hero doesn't have to shove/fold pre he can outplay villain on flop in most situations.

Cut stack sizes by a few more BB and yeah shove.

But I do see your point and it could go either way. Overall though I think here, especially given OPs comment that villain was complaining of OP blind stealing that a nice bet on flop would fold villain and avoid leaving the pot up to chance with that Ace coming. Of course with everything it depends. If you know villain is re-raising pre with junk like Ax or Kx you can shove and take it down pre. But if you're not certain you can see a cheaper flop and take it there.
 
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shomy21

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Very bad call for me with A9 but he got lucky. I would fold there on 3rd bet.
 
Romario2223

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I will never call with A9 here, but its poker monkeys.))
 
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wilTurkey56

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Me neither, this is not a bad beat story, more a reflection on my play rather than that terrible call
 
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Pokerencyclopedia

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we are 20BB with a premium and facing a reraise.
flat pre and folding to an A or K will leave us with 13BB, which is not an option.
so i think the answer is: are we near the bubble? do we want to cash or gamble now? the hand is good enough for a gamble whatever is villain holding ( we are ahead most of times).
 
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rule72

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...Hero raises to 5k, villain reraise to 14k, hero all in for 40k

Now a couple of thoughts of mine:
I want to get it in every time if villain is calling with that trash

However, if hero just calls, villain misses the flop, then hero can go all in and villain folds

What are your thoughts about hero play and after hand analysis

I think your analysis is correct all you have left to add with a premium hand is your stack size. First, especially when antes are involved, I look at M rather than bb's. Assuming 9 players your M is about 7. That's short and I would have shoved on the initial bet.

Now I like your original bet when you have a deep stack and you really don't want to go all in without a strong hand. (Note, after the flop you may only have one pair and that's always a long way from a strong hand). In that case I would have called the 14k and played exactly as you suggested. I prefer to see the flop when I have plenty of chips to spare.

As a side note I find it funny when the bb complains about utg & utg+1 stealing their blinds. UTG has 7-8 other players between them and the bb, stealing's not usually on my mind when utg.
 
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Gump877

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4-bet shove is good here. I think your alot better then a coinflip majority of time plus the small amount of equity you already have in the pot increases your odds.
 
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vassiriki

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4 bet shove is deffo right with those blinds and i guess you had 20 bbs as also he had. maybe you might go directly all-in but that wouldn't be also my play. i believe it's due your history with that player. nothing done wrong on your side as i can see.
 
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Gazorpazorpfield

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Lately I have incorporated folding QQ when faced with a reraise preflop.
Although in your situation, I might have called to see if an A or a K developed on the flop.

Either way, I don't think what you did was bad, but do expect to get beat with queens preflop quite often (40%?).

I guess it all depends on your opponents range, since you have history with him, I'd assume only you know if you made the right call there, as you know what hands he is willing to play for how much.

But it sucks to lose when you know you are ahead lol.
 
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