I also play microstakes. I use 3xBB or even more at the low blinds, then shift to 2.5 as the blinds get larger, so by the time I am looking at stealing blinds, I am using 2.5
This is basically what i meant....
I would lean towards #1 and respect the player as having a hand. If you are betting 3 - 4x BB and then getting 3bet for the pot or more, they better have a hand. If not and they keep playing hyper-aggressive like that, they won't be around to 3-bet you for long!
"I'll agree with this, but at the same time-- why are you ever raising 3-4x pre? Please never do this unless the std raise is 4x at a superstack table 1st level. You'll stand out like a rook and it's a waste of chips."
I thought 3xBB was a standard raise and you were supposed to add one BB for each limper in the pot especially from mid to late position. The pot bet when first to open is right between the 3xBB & 4xBB amount.
Right. my bad. IN early levels 3x it and add for limpers. I misinterpreted what you said earlier and thought you were opening 4x with no limpers. Don't 3.5 or 4x with no limpers
I can see the smaller 2.5xBB bet if you are in early position, but if you are left facing the blinds, the BB would only need to call 1.5BB to see the flop where 4BB are already in the pot. He would be getting good odds to call here with too many hands, so his range just went increased. With a 3xBB best he would need a little better hand to call.
As stacks get shallower the amount of the raise doesn't matter - it's the signal that is important. The guy thinking
pot odds on a 100bb stack is a lot different than the 25bb stack. Noone is going to call a 2.5x but fold had you made it 3x. That's highly unlikely. Unless they are idiots, which they may be.
The general principle is to raise the minimum required to get your point across. If it brings in more players when you have a monster, then great. If you are stealing or have a good but not crushing hand, then what yo uare doing is saving chips when you need to play post. smaller pot = smaller cbet = smaller turn bet etc...
Also, some posters rail on the idea of limping or just min betting...and for good reason. How is a 2.5xBB much better than a 2xBB (min bet) or significantly worse than a 3xBB bet?
Limping is generally awful. (With the possible exception of a table full of maniacs that you plan on re-popping because you know you are going to get raised by them.)
limping behind 3 others limpers is fine.
limping EP once in a great while just for randomness isn't the worst thing in the world. But make it a rare rare occurrence.
But open limps in EP should get attacked by anyone decent in late position with a nice iso raise, forcing you to either fold or end up playing OOP and folding most flops. It's weak. Sharks smell weakness and eat it like chum
For example, I played the FTP $5 CC buyin a couple weeks ago. I think by the end of that tournament I had a full start stack worth of chips from people who'd limp pre in EP or MP and I'd raise big on the button or CO or even the blinds and they would fold.
Limping first on in Late position is even worse. Can't steal anything then at all. Position is power, use it.
For your consideration, my experience is with micro buy ins, so I know if I make a pot affordable, it only invites callers. People will call a min bet or even an obvious pot bet more often than a 3x or 4x BB bet.
If the table is a bunch of calling stations, then see whether they call pre and fold on the flop. if so, letem call you. If not, then do raise more to thin the field a little. The problem is, if you 4x open all the time you won't get enough action when you want it IMO.
FWIW, post-antes in higher buyins, the top-notch guys are often going to min raises only! It's the signalling effect. ANd yes, they may get a few more calls out of the blinds for the sick pot odds, but the difference here is that they aren't afraid to play post-flop... and as it is the standard raise almost noone is calling just for odds except maybe the big blind.
This phenomenon has worked its way down to the $10 tournies often too. If I can get away with showing the table that the minraise is the standard, and still steal with it I do. And yes, I play some micros too - and in the later game, it often works.
When I bet, I want information on what a player might have. If they call 3xBB or especially 4xBB, they usually have something decent. Too many call a min bet with suited near connectors, Ax, or even ATC. I don't see how a bet of just 25% more than the min bet is going to be much more effective at weeding out speculative players.
Again, it's a function of stacks. When a guy is on 15- 25 blinds, all he knows is it's a raise in front. Also, assuming you aren't raising with complete garbage, let them call. When you make a hand you'll make more money.
If using the 2.5BB has the same effect as a 3xBB, I am all for saving the chips. I just think it would create more call situations.
I think you are afraid to play postflop.
Pull up some $26 or $50+ tournaments and watch them when they are post ante. You'll see what I mean. Once stacks start shallowing, even pre-ante, raises drop to ~2.5. Except for the bad players who stick at 3.
Post antes raises drop to between 2x on occasion and usually 2.2- 2.4x from the good players. Anyone 3xing post ante is a fish. It's just not how the game is played - and I won't even have to OPR them.
Anyone that makes a 3.5x or 4x open at these levels with no limpers is giving away their hand to me as well- especially if they otherwise were at 3x. It screams either steal or monster (read-dependent there depending on what I saw prior.
p.s. my favorite are people post ante that will open for 3x or 3.5x and fold to a re-raise. I LOVE THOSE GUYS. print me money right there. I even recall being final two tables in a stars 3r (First like $5k) and there was scared money opening for 6x to 8x whenever he opened. Joy is the world when I found out he would fold to re-raises. It was christmas. Imagine how many more chips he would have if he opened for 2.4x?
I would not have known he was a scared fish for one... and also he would have saved nearly 20 bb from the three times he opened and folded to my 3bets.
That's the extreme example, but i think it illustrates the point.
And Fwiw, I've shipped or FT'd big field micros with the raise sizings I've described. I might wait a bit longer to drop my opens below 3x, but it still works.