3bet fold

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peskey123

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i was deep stacked recently in a $5 12k guarantee on stars
with about 200 left i was doing my usual of growing my stack by stealing blinds but it seemed to me that people kept 3betting me and i just couldnt call with hands like Ace rag and suitedconnectors. after a few times a bit of paranoia kicked in and i thought people were doing it cuz they knew i'd fold.
was i doing anything wrong? should i change tactics a bit and steal by 3betting as opposed to blind stealing as first to act in lp....


thoughts people??
 
JOEBOB69

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1)You could have been unlucky an button,SB,BB were actually getting hands.
2)You are running deep in a tourney vs very good player they are picking up on your stealing and are restealing.
Options# 1 are tighten up only raise strong from late postion.I'm sure good players will pick up on this,an you'll lose tons of free money.
Option#2 4bet shove.Pro's of this you pick up money,and let them know your serious when you raise in late postion even if you know better.It would only take once or twice of you to 4bet shoves before they got the message.Con's they got a hand and your out.
Option#3 Flat the 3bet if your ip vs SB,BB an play the flop.
Note this is just my thought,and chip counts mean everything an they change hand to hand.
 
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peskey123

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cant really do option 2 or 3 as their 3 bet is 90% of the time an all in
 
JOEBOB69

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So your tring to steal vs short stackers?If so "don't do that" play tight,or shove Ax.
 
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wislim

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You have to be more aware of effective stack sizes behind you. Don't raise into 3 bet shove stacks with a medium streghth hand your just gonna fold. Raise with a better hand that your going to call with.
 
rcrocketman

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joe is right option 1 is best
 
JMTalbert

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I would lean towards #1 and respect the player as having a hand. If you are betting 3 - 4x BB and then getting 3bet for the pot or more, they better have a hand. If not and they keep playing hyper-aggressive like that, they won't be around to 3-bet you for long!

Also, if you are trying to steal the blinds from a stack that is 10BB or less, you are asking for a reraise shove. Those stacks are, if tight, playing Ax, any two Faces, or any pair. They might be playing ATC. Don't bully the small stacks unless you are prepared to call their All In. The medium stacks have more to lose.

I am not sure what you mean by being "first to act in lp". lp = Late position? You can't be both (you are either first to act or in late position) and you should only try to steal from late position. If you mean you are in the cut off or button, but with the blinds or a limper set to act after you, I see what you are trying to say. Again, don't bully the small stacks, even if they are unfortunately to your immediate left. If there is a limper, they could be setting a trap. Be careful.

If you are getting 3-bet by the same person over and over every time you bet out, that person likely recently read an article about the power and profitability of the 3-bet. It isn't a move that someone should use on a such a regular basis that it is obvious to others at the table. I might respect it too much and my stats might show me folding to it too often, but I'm just not calling a 3-bet with a speculative hand. If someone keeps it up though, eventually an observant player is going to pop them.

My preflop raises are based on position, my stack size, and table/tournament situation, as much or more than the cards. My 3xBB or POT bet might be TT, KQs, or AA. If it is TT or KQs, I can lay that down to the the 3bet and walk away. If I have KK, AA, or maybe AK/QQ and the guy has been 3-betting me a lot, I will play back at them.

If this has happened multiple times and the guy is to your left, just remember the 3-bet tendencies and tighten up on your starting hand requirements a little. Your time will come. When you get that AA or KK, bet like you had previously when trying to steal (3xBB, 4xBB, Pot, whatever so it looks the same). If he 3-bet as you expect, insta-shove or click it back to him to try and maximize your value. Definitely don't just call his 3-bet if you indeed have a premium starting hand. Make them pay!
 
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peskey123

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sorry i meant first to act as in folded round to me in late position.... not very clear.
thanks though
 
JOEBOB69

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My preflop raises are based on position, my stack size, and table/tournament situation, as much or more than the cards. My 3xBB or POT bet might be TT, KQs, or AA. If it is TT or KQs, I can lay that down to the the 3bet and walk away. If I have KK, AA, or maybe AK/QQ and the guy has been 3-betting me a lot, I will play back at them.
I think you almost have it but not quite.Your missing so many steal opportunities it isn't funny.An if you truly are stealing with a hand like 57 off you will dump it in a heart beat vs 10 10 not so easy to let got?Should you let a hand like 10 10 go vs a unknown from the blinds vs late postion steal?This is of course stack size.
DON'T TRY TO STEAL FROM A SHORTY:BEAWARE OF YOUR AND EVERYONES CHIPS AT ALL TIMES.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Did you wear out your welcome (3 or more consecutive steal attempts from CO or BTN)? Can't be too heavy handed about it and use a little finesse. Let one or two go by now and then. Or they will catch on and play back at you.

i was deep stacked recently in a $5 12k guarantee on stars
with about 200 left i was doing my usual of growing my stack by stealing blinds but it seemed to me that people kept 3betting me and i just couldnt call with hands like Ace rag and suitedconnectors. after a few times a bit of paranoia kicked in and i thought people were doing it cuz they knew i'd fold.
was i doing anything wrong? should i change tactics a bit and steal by 3betting as opposed to blind stealing as first to act in lp....


thoughts people??
 
bonflizubi

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1)You could have been unlucky an button,SB,BB were actually getting hands.
2)You are running deep in a tourney vs very good player they are picking up on your stealing and are restealing.
Options# 1 are tighten up only raise strong from late postion.I'm sure good players will pick up on this,an you'll lose tons of free money.
Option#2 4bet shove.Pro's of this you pick up money,and let them know your serious when you raise in late postion even if you know better.It would only take once or twice of you to 4bet shoves before they got the message.Con's they got a hand and your out.
Option#3 Flat the 3bet if your ip vs SB,BB an play the flop.
Note this is just my thought,and chip counts mean everything an they change hand to hand.

cant really do option 2 or 3 as their 3 bet is 90% of the time an all in

You have to be more aware of effective stack sizes behind you. Don't raise into 3 bet shove stacks with a medium streghth hand your just gonna fold. Raise with a better hand that your going to call with.

Wis is right. Mostly. If the 10-18-bb stacks are tight I'll still raise them light until they fight back. If they are reship monkeys I can either tighten up a bit, or, after they have reshipped me a couple times, call them light.

Remember, with antes you only need to be succesfull like half the time preflop.. and even less often if you are getting called and folded to on the cbet.

Now, if they are 3betting you and are deeper-stacked like you, then don't keep folding. Fold some, flat some speculative hands and four bet back light if you think they are coming after you light with t e3 bet.


I would lean towards #1 and respect the player as having a hand. If you are betting 3 - 4x BB and then getting 3bet for the pot or more, they better have a hand. If not and they keep playing hyper-aggressive like that, they won't be around to 3-bet you for long!

I'll agree with this, but at the same time-- why are you ever raising 3-4x pre? Please never do this unless the std raise is 4x at a superstack table 1st level. You'll stand out like a rook and it's a waste of chips.


Also, if you are trying to steal the blinds from a stack that is 10BB or less, you are asking for a reraise shove. Those stacks are, if tight, playing Ax, any two Faces, or any pair. They might be playing ATC. Don't bully the small stacks unless you are prepared to call their All In. The medium stacks have more to lose.

+1. Never raise the blind of a 10bb stack without the intention of calling their shove. (Sole exception is if this guy has played one hand every ten orbits, then I think it's worth folding some junk hands to him)

Also Medium stacks again are the meat to go after. As are the NITS from your HUD


If you are getting 3-bet by the same person over and over every time you bet out, that person likely recently read an article about the power and profitability of the 3-bet. It isn't a move that someone should use on a such a regular basis that it is obvious to others at the table. I might respect it too much and my stats might show me folding to it too often, but I'm just not calling a 3-bet with a speculative hand. If someone keeps it up though, eventually an observant player is going to pop them.

LOL disagree. I 3bet one guy 5 opens in a row the other night and he folded every time. So I did it again the 6th time and when he shoved me I folded. I was way ahead. The next time he raised the Hijack and I was on te button I did him again and he folded. It's all about reads here. Exploit the exploitable. If you see someone that is opening a TON in late position 3bet the hell out of them until they play back. It's the most profitable spot in poker.

My preflop raises are based on position, my stack size, and table/tournament situation, as much or more than the cards. My 3xBB or POT bet might be TT, KQs, or AA. If it is TT or KQs, I can lay that down to the the 3bet and walk away. If I have KK, AA, or maybe AK/QQ and the guy has been 3-betting me a lot, I will play back at them.

Again. please don't raise 3x post antes (first levels OK, but rarely is anyone going to 3bet crazy on you early in the game.)

And for the love of god never POT raise preflop. You will be noted as a goofball by the regs and also you are wasting chips for when you do fold. why not open 2.5x and save a BB?

Also if someone is 3betting me a lot I'm 4betting them with so many hands it's ridiculous. Waiting for TT+ AK KQss is so super - exploitable it's not funny.

If this has happened multiple times and the guy is to your left, just remember the 3-bet tendencies and tighten up on your starting hand requirements a little. Your time will come. When you get that AA or KK, bet like you had previously when trying to steal (3xBB, 4xBB, Pot, whatever so it looks the same). If he 3-bet as you expect, insta-shove or click it back to him to try and maximize your value. Definitely don't just call his 3-bet if you indeed have a premium starting hand. Make them pay!

NOOOOOOO.........

When playing a guy who is exploiting you - you need to be willing to 4bet light! Otherwise you let him exploit you and you miss out on your share of steals. Also 4betting will slow him down. You need to be prepared for a fight.

Also don't 4bet your monsters unless you are sure he'll stack off - or if you are OOP (I don't really want to play QQ OOP, but I'm happy to do so in position against the blinds). If you only 4bet monsters any observant player instamucks his garbage. This though assumes it's not micro monkeys who overvalue junk hands and also pay no attention. Against bad or maniac players I may well shove the monsters with the expectation to get called by worse. You need to read that player type on your own at the table.

A guy that is 3betting all your opens will fold to a lot of 4 bets. Flatting behind in position will fool a lot of players - though it might well set off alarms for solid players unless they think you are a fish. Fish don't flat monsters. Sharks do.

So yes, make them pay, but figure out who pays you by calling a 4bet light, and who would instamuck to a 4bet but be willing to stack off with KJ on a jack high flop when you flat behind with QQ or AA.

DON'T TRY TO STEAL FROM A SHORTY:BEAWARE OF YOUR AND EVERYONES CHIPS AT ALL TIMES.

Generally agree. But I will steal all day from shorties that play way too tight and are extremely unwilling to play back at me.
 
JMTalbert

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Quote:
I would lean towards #1 and respect the player as having a hand. If you are betting 3 - 4x BB and then getting 3bet for the pot or more, they better have a hand. If not and they keep playing hyper-aggressive like that, they won't be around to 3-bet you for long!
"I'll agree with this, but at the same time-- why are you ever raising 3-4x pre? Please never do this unless the std raise is 4x at a superstack table 1st level. You'll stand out like a rook and it's a waste of chips."

I thought 3xBB was a standard raise and you were supposed to add one BB for each limper in the pot especially from mid to late position. The pot bet when first to open is right between the 3xBB & 4xBB amount.

I can see the smaller 2.5xBB bet if you are in early position, but if you are left facing the blinds, the BB would only need to call 1.5BB to see the flop where 4BB are already in the pot. He would be getting good odds to call here with too many hands, so his range just went increased. With a 3xBB best he would need a little better hand to call.

Also, some posters rail on the idea of limping or just min betting...and for good reason. How is a 2.5xBB much better than a 2xBB (min bet) or significantly worse than a 3xBB bet?

For your consideration, my experience is with micro buy ins, so I know if I make a pot affordable, it only invites callers. People will call a min bet or even an obvious pot bet more often than a 3x or 4x BB bet.

When I bet, I want information on what a player might have. If they call 3xBB or especially 4xBB, they usually have something decent. Too many call a min bet with suited near connectors, Ax, or even ATC. I don't see how a bet of just 25% more than the min bet is going to be much more effective at weeding out speculative players.

If using the 2.5BB has the same effect as a 3xBB, I am all for saving the chips. I just think it would create more call situations.
 
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I also play microstakes. I use 3xBB or even more at the low blinds, then shift to 2.5 as the blinds get larger, so by the time I am looking at stealing blinds, I am using 2.5
 
AtiFCOD

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i was deep stacked recently in a $5 12k guarantee on stars
with about 200 left i was doing my usual of growing my stack by stealing blinds but it seemed to me that people kept 3betting me and i just couldnt call with hands like Ace rag and suitedconnectors. after a few times a bit of paranoia kicked in and i thought people were doing it cuz they knew i'd fold.
was i doing anything wrong? should i change tactics a bit and steal by 3betting as opposed to blind stealing as first to act in lp....


thoughts people??

Yeah if you steal often, you get the 3bets.
Try to do it on a "believable way". :)
 
bonflizubi

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I also play microstakes. I use 3xBB or even more at the low blinds, then shift to 2.5 as the blinds get larger, so by the time I am looking at stealing blinds, I am using 2.5

This is basically what i meant....

I would lean towards #1 and respect the player as having a hand. If you are betting 3 - 4x BB and then getting 3bet for the pot or more, they better have a hand. If not and they keep playing hyper-aggressive like that, they won't be around to 3-bet you for long!
"I'll agree with this, but at the same time-- why are you ever raising 3-4x pre? Please never do this unless the std raise is 4x at a superstack table 1st level. You'll stand out like a rook and it's a waste of chips."

I thought 3xBB was a standard raise and you were supposed to add one BB for each limper in the pot especially from mid to late position. The pot bet when first to open is right between the 3xBB & 4xBB amount.

Right. my bad. IN early levels 3x it and add for limpers. I misinterpreted what you said earlier and thought you were opening 4x with no limpers. Don't 3.5 or 4x with no limpers

I can see the smaller 2.5xBB bet if you are in early position, but if you are left facing the blinds, the BB would only need to call 1.5BB to see the flop where 4BB are already in the pot. He would be getting good odds to call here with too many hands, so his range just went increased. With a 3xBB best he would need a little better hand to call.

As stacks get shallower the amount of the raise doesn't matter - it's the signal that is important. The guy thinking pot odds on a 100bb stack is a lot different than the 25bb stack. Noone is going to call a 2.5x but fold had you made it 3x. That's highly unlikely. Unless they are idiots, which they may be.

The general principle is to raise the minimum required to get your point across. If it brings in more players when you have a monster, then great. If you are stealing or have a good but not crushing hand, then what yo uare doing is saving chips when you need to play post. smaller pot = smaller cbet = smaller turn bet etc...

Also, some posters rail on the idea of limping or just min betting...and for good reason. How is a 2.5xBB much better than a 2xBB (min bet) or significantly worse than a 3xBB bet?

Limping is generally awful. (With the possible exception of a table full of maniacs that you plan on re-popping because you know you are going to get raised by them.)

limping behind 3 others limpers is fine.

limping EP once in a great while just for randomness isn't the worst thing in the world. But make it a rare rare occurrence.

But open limps in EP should get attacked by anyone decent in late position with a nice iso raise, forcing you to either fold or end up playing OOP and folding most flops. It's weak. Sharks smell weakness and eat it like chum :)

For example, I played the FTP $5 CC buyin a couple weeks ago. I think by the end of that tournament I had a full start stack worth of chips from people who'd limp pre in EP or MP and I'd raise big on the button or CO or even the blinds and they would fold.

Limping first on in Late position is even worse. Can't steal anything then at all. Position is power, use it.

For your consideration, my experience is with micro buy ins, so I know if I make a pot affordable, it only invites callers. People will call a min bet or even an obvious pot bet more often than a 3x or 4x BB bet.

If the table is a bunch of calling stations, then see whether they call pre and fold on the flop. if so, letem call you. If not, then do raise more to thin the field a little. The problem is, if you 4x open all the time you won't get enough action when you want it IMO.

FWIW, post-antes in higher buyins, the top-notch guys are often going to min raises only! It's the signalling effect. ANd yes, they may get a few more calls out of the blinds for the sick pot odds, but the difference here is that they aren't afraid to play post-flop... and as it is the standard raise almost noone is calling just for odds except maybe the big blind.

This phenomenon has worked its way down to the $10 tournies often too. If I can get away with showing the table that the minraise is the standard, and still steal with it I do. And yes, I play some micros too - and in the later game, it often works.

When I bet, I want information on what a player might have. If they call 3xBB or especially 4xBB, they usually have something decent. Too many call a min bet with suited near connectors, Ax, or even ATC. I don't see how a bet of just 25% more than the min bet is going to be much more effective at weeding out speculative players.

Again, it's a function of stacks. When a guy is on 15- 25 blinds, all he knows is it's a raise in front. Also, assuming you aren't raising with complete garbage, let them call. When you make a hand you'll make more money.

If using the 2.5BB has the same effect as a 3xBB, I am all for saving the chips. I just think it would create more call situations.

I think you are afraid to play postflop.

Pull up some $26 or $50+ tournaments and watch them when they are post ante. You'll see what I mean. Once stacks start shallowing, even pre-ante, raises drop to ~2.5. Except for the bad players who stick at 3.

Post antes raises drop to between 2x on occasion and usually 2.2- 2.4x from the good players. Anyone 3xing post ante is a fish. It's just not how the game is played - and I won't even have to OPR them.

Anyone that makes a 3.5x or 4x open at these levels with no limpers is giving away their hand to me as well- especially if they otherwise were at 3x. It screams either steal or monster (read-dependent there depending on what I saw prior.


p.s. my favorite are people post ante that will open for 3x or 3.5x and fold to a re-raise. I LOVE THOSE GUYS. print me money right there. I even recall being final two tables in a stars 3r (First like $5k) and there was scared money opening for 6x to 8x whenever he opened. Joy is the world when I found out he would fold to re-raises. It was christmas. Imagine how many more chips he would have if he opened for 2.4x? I would not have known he was a scared fish for one... and also he would have saved nearly 20 bb from the three times he opened and folded to my 3bets.

That's the extreme example, but i think it illustrates the point.

And Fwiw, I've shipped or FT'd big field micros with the raise sizings I've described. I might wait a bit longer to drop my opens below 3x, but it still works.
 
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