3bet and 4bet

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lfc

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Both very fine tools in accumulating chips or cash but how often it should be done % wise and can you provide some good coaching videos or articles on that ?

I don't think I do it enough and it can be used and it is used much more profitable so can surely improve there ...:ridinghor
 
Four Dogs

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The stock answer to almost any question is "It depends". The answer to this question depends on so many things that it is virtually impossible to give a good answer. If you're asking the question then I assume you're just starting out so I will attempt to give you a basic answer that might work for now until you're ready for something a little a more nuanced. For now, 3 bet when you know or are reasonably sure that you're ahead of the original raisers range of hands. Without any information that would be QQ-AA and AK. Why? Because those hands are ahead of just about anyones preflop raising range AND because they stand a good chance of still being ahead when called making them easier to play postflop.

With no information save the 4bets for AA and KK only.

Of course all this changes in the late stages of a tournament when the blinds are big and you don't have the luxury of throwing away otherwise premium hands like JJ, QQ AQs AK. There are times when you just have to pull the lever and hope for cherries.
 
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jj20002

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Both very fine tools in accumulating chips or cash but how often it should be done % wise and can you provide some good coaching videos or articles on that ?

I don't think I do it enough and it can be used and it is used much more profitable so can surely improve there ...:ridinghor


if you see an opponent raising with any two then is good to 3 bet and 4 bet and put them allin if you think you are stronger,

but if a nit player raises to you and you dont have a monster you better flat or fold

obviously it will depend in so many factors like position, stacks, number of players, stage, and so on,

videos? very interesting to watch the wsop 2014 on youtube, I recorded this hand: one guy had Q8o and the other J7, first one raised, the other one 3 bet, then a 4 bet and finally an allin followed by a fold, very unusual but this was played by 2 pros and they know what they are doing and sometimes they get paid and lose too, so this is poker, the most interesting game!
 
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lfc

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The stock answer to almost any question is "It depends". The answer to this question depends on so many things that it is virtually impossible to give a good answer. If you're asking the question then I assume you're just starting out so I will attempt to give you a basic answer that might work for now until you're ready for something a little a more nuanced. For now, 3 bet when you know or are reasonably sure that you're ahead of the original raisers range of hands. Without any information that would be QQ-AA and AK. Why? Because those hands are ahead of just about anyones preflop raising range AND because they stand a good chance of still being ahead when called making them easier to play postflop.

With no information save the 4bets for AA and KK only.

Of course all this changes in the late stages of a tournament when the blinds are big and you don't have the luxury of throwing away otherwise premium hands like JJ, QQ AQs AK. There are times when you just have to pull the lever and hope for cherries.

Of course it depends like everything I didn't so much ask the question as were hoping for some kind of discussion on the subject. What I meant (and this is much more valid for the late phase of tournaments) I see people doing it much more often and being more profitable in these final phases with these tools than I would like for myself.
for example I have sample of 120k hands where my 3bet is about 6 % and within that I have like 20k hands where I have played more aggressively with about 21% PFR and still about 10% the most 3betting. Many keep statistics such statistics ...
 
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If you are playing live, the 4 bet is almost always AA. For a reason.
 
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mads2206

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i need to be better at 3 betting myself i usually only do it when im in possesion with 78s 89s and so on and ofc when i got the top of my hands QQ KK AA. with JJ it depends on how active the guy at the table is. anyone who can link a video where the main focus is 3 betting?
 
Four Dogs

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Of course it depends like everything I didn't so much ask the question as were hoping for some kind of discussion on the subject. What I meant (and this is much more valid for the late phase of tournaments) I see people doing it much more often and being more profitable in these final phases with these tools than I would like for myself.
for example I have sample of 120k hands where my 3bet is about 6 % and within that I have like 20k hands where I have played more aggressively with about 21% PFR and still about 10% the most 3betting. Many keep statistics such statistics ...
Fair enough, let's have a discussion then. In the late stages of a tournament every hand you play is like walking through a mine field. Most raises will get through, especially when your close to the money so when you face a 3 bet it's usually from a real battle hand. But some people are very good at recognizing obvious steal situations and are ready to pull the trigger on a 3 bet when the right conditions arise. Let's go over a few of those conditions.

The most obvious time to 3bet is when someone is raising light and the most obvious time for that is when they're on the button. When you 3 bet or re-steal you have to expect a call from the original raiser who's in position and will often be to embarrassed to just fold outright so your plan has to be to continue on any flop. If you're going to get called anyway then you might want to keep the pot small and just click it back. There's no reason to bet the farm, if he was raising light he'll call and usually fold to any sized CBet but some of of the time you're going to get called. What then? If you're not confident in your post flop play then your better off not even opening that can of worms, but it's good to at least start with a hand with some decent equity.

Another thing to keep in mind is stack sizes. If you're under 15bb's you're 3bet needs to be All-In. You just don't have enough in the tank to fool around with any post flop shananagans.

The 4bets are really about putting yourself in the other guys shoes. You open raise from the button. If he's a good player he knows that you're often raising light and therefor 3 bets light. You take a deep breath and 4bet putting him to the test. This scenario happens all the time and has little to do with either of your cards. It's a game of chicken. Again, stack sizes are imperative. The idea is to win without a showdown. The only time this can (should) happen is when effective stacks are deep enough so that one of you can find a correct fold. Otherwise you'll find yourself getting called or shoved on by some pretty surprising hands.

This is some pretty gruesome stuff but it should take you way beyond your 6% 3 bet range. It will also do wonders for you're table image when you get away with it. You'll get called names and people with write nasty notes about you, but they won't **** with you.
 
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lfc

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Fair enough, let's have a discussion then. In the late stages of a tournament every hand you play is like walking through a mine field. Most raises will get through, especially when your close to the money so when you face a 3 bet it's usually from a real battle hand. But some people are very good at recognizing obvious steal situations and are ready to pull the trigger on a 3 bet when the right conditions arise. Let's go over a few of those conditions.

The most obvious time to 3bet is when someone is raising light and the most obvious time for that is when they're on the button. When you 3 bet or re-steal you have to expect a call from the original raiser who's in position and will often be to embarrassed to just fold outright so your plan has to be to continue on any flop. If you're going to get called anyway then you might want to keep the pot small and just click it back. There's no reason to bet the farm, if he was raising light he'll call and usually fold to any sized CBet but some of of the time you're going to get called. What then? If you're not confident in your post flop play then your better off not even opening that can of worms, but it's good to at least start with a hand with some decent equity.

Another thing to keep in mind is stack sizes. If you're under 15bb's you're 3bet needs to be All-In. You just don't have enough in the tank to fool around with any post flop shananagans.

The 4bets are really about putting yourself in the other guys shoes. You open raise from the button. If he's a good player he knows that you're often raising light and therefor 3 bets light. You take a deep breath and 4bet putting him to the test. This scenario happens all the time and has little to do with either of your cards. It's a game of chicken. Again, stack sizes are imperative. The idea is to win without a showdown. The only time this can (should) happen is when effective stacks are deep enough so that one of you can find a correct fold. Otherwise you'll find yourself getting called or shoved on by some pretty surprising hands.

This is some pretty gruesome stuff but it should take you way beyond your 6% 3 bet range. It will also do wonders for you're table image when you get away with it. You'll get called names and people with write nasty notes about you, but they won't **** with you.

First of all thanks for the thorough post I wasn't able to post cause I can only make 10 posts in 24 hours ...
Anyway I see growing trend in online poker where your raises get frequent min 3bets especially when you are out of position and this is probably because 3bet in online is much more effortless than in live poker. In these situations especially when deep stack 4bet works wonders as these min 3bet guys are often doing it with nothing and helps you establish nice table image.
The situation you described is very tricky when you 3bet out of position and is probably where I need to improve because when I am in position and have called 3bet (or raise) I call the cb often too especially when with potential which is often the case and discourage opposition from continuing on the turn if they don't have a real hand which is what they often do to me and sometimes these are very risky situations especially when healthy in stack.
 
taban13

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As Doyle Brunson look at dial wrist watch, and if the second hand is at the quarter hours doing the 1.2.3 3bet and if in the last quarter of the 4bet. Excellent advice.
 
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