30bb's UTG with middle pocket pairs?

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RamdeeBen

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I'm unsure of the correct play here when first to act..

If say the blinds are 50/100 and you have a stack of 300, is a standard 3x raise ok?

I got called by 4 people lol, I bet just over pot on a 2,5,K board. Now, that was probarly a mistake as someone is likely to of flatted with a King, I get shoved on, how what? Call/fold? I actually folded because I thought my first bet when there was 4 people in the flop was bad enough.

I wonder though, isn't nines to strong to just fold with 30blinds left? Should I open shove even though this seems a bit to loose for my liking but then I'm left with either 3x raise/get called/out of position..

The same applies to other pocket pairs in early position, what's your approach? How many blinds do you warrant having?

Can someone show me their shove ranges from UTG with 20-30bbs?

Could it possibly be even a fold with 5'5s/6'6s/7'7s/8'8/9'9s?
What is you pick up an even smaller pocket pair? Should we just muck these instantly?
 
ben_rhyno

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lol a 3x raise is just a shove :p (you obv meant 3k stack)
 
ben_rhyno

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With a 30bb stack, my UTG range isn't changing too much from normal, i'll open 88+, AJs+, AQo+ and open for 2.5-3x. If I get a few callers I evaluate on the flop and if I get raised I'll fold 88, 99,AJs, and AQo and probably 4-bet shove with the rest of my range while I still have fold equity and for value. In your situation, multiway on a dry flop with 1 overcard, you can c-bet but 2/3-3/4 pot is fine and if people have a K they will call this and if they don't they will probably fold. It has the same effect as a pot bet and you get away cheaper if you come up against a strong hand like here. As played, I'm folding here about 90% of the time without a good read on someone. Also, you have too many chips to be open shoving and you can only be called by a better hand so that's a bad play.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Ok thanks.

So, what you shoving with UTG with 20 blinds? 8'8s+ and A,Q+? People say you shoulden't shove A,J with 20 blinds UTG..not sure. Obviously you can't fold here, can you and 2.3/3x blinds = 10% of your stack?

So, actually what sort of percentage of chips are you willing to put in pot and fold? 10% or is that to much to check/fold? If you miss with your A,J...c-bet is out of the question because if called we're screwed right? So...not sure here whats the best play..
 
ben_rhyno

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with 20bbs im probably raising 2.5x with AJs like normal. I'm definitely NOT open shoving JJ+,AQs+, because I want max value from these
 
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only_bridge

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I usually muck low pair from early to middle pos when I have an akward stack.
If you, like in the example, raise with 9's and get 4 callers, then you are pretty much in set mining mode.
 
Pascal-lf

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With 30bb UTG I probably raise like 77+, multiway flops with any overs just c/f, lead out if you have overpair or a set basically. Not 3xing at 50/100 either, probably making it 240.

Will write more later, also posting to suscribe :)
 
OzExorcist

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Like above, with an awkward stack I probably just fold a small to medium pair in that spot.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Thanks for the replies.

I have another question/situation for you if you wouldn't mind.

Ok, these are examples which come up quite often for most people if not all is of you're going deep in a tournament,

Say you are pretty sure to 100% you're up agaisnt a A,K vs your pair or any pocket pair vs two over cards or vica versa when do you decide Ok, now it's time to take this flip and either double up or bust"

What sort of blinds left are we talking here to take this flip?

Say you are shoved on and you hold a pair, are you calling regardless with any pair with 10-15blinds?

If you hold A,K or a pair and have 20blinds left, are you shoving?
 
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only_bridge

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Thanks for the replies.

I have another question/situation for you if you wouldn't mind.

Ok, these are examples which come up quite often for most people if not all is of you're going deep in a tournament,

Say you are pretty sure to 100% you're up agaisnt a A,K vs your pair or any pocket pair vs two over cards or vica versa when do you decide Ok, now it's time to take this flip and either double up or bust"

What sort of blinds left are we talking here to take this flip?

Say you are shoved on and you hold a pair, are you calling regardless with any pair with 10-15blinds?

If you hold A,K or a pair and have 20blinds left, are you shoving?

I would call an all-in for a coinflip in an MTT when there is more than 15% dead money in the middle.
Of course it does depend a lot.
If I am the chip leader then I would be more inclinded to take a coinflip, than if I risk getting knocked out.
The difficult stack is around 15-30 bb's. With that stack size I would be less inclined to take the coinflip. The dead money in the middle is usually lower percent wise than if we were shortstack, so the risk to chance ratio is not as good.
There are a lot of things written about these middle stacks, and how to play them. The tournament pro's call it "the re-raise zone".

I once played a tourney where I either called a short stack or called putting my own shortstack all-in seven times in five minutes.
It was kind of a coinflip every time and around 20% dead money in the middle on every hand.
 
Pascal-lf

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You can never be sure that it is pair v two overs or two overs v pair so no answer...
 
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RamdeeBen

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You can never be sure that it is pair v two overs or two overs v pair so no answer...

In general though. I know you can't be sure, but in general the majority of the time you are flipping in late stages. I'm just asking what point do you decide it's time to take this flip to either double or bust?

For example, many of times I'm shoved on and holding two overs or a pair for example. I know the majority of the time I'm just flipping unless I'm holding Queens +

What's your breakdown in terms of BB weather your overs or pair are good enough to call a shove from someone or you shove someone?

Oh and pascal, I notice a trend with the good poker players that they seem to go deep quite often by picking the times to call or shove in to someone. I'm not saying they win more flips or anything but they seem to pick that "right" time to take the flip, just wonder what makes them think it's correct to call a shove at a particular time and to fold the same hand with the same blinds 15minutes later or 15 minutes earlier whichever.

You seem to have a good end game, so let us in to when you decide.
 
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RamdeeBen

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I would call an all-in for a coinflip in an MTT when there is more than 15% dead money in the middle.
Of course it does depend a lot.
If I am the chip leader then I would be more inclinded to take a coinflip, than if I risk getting knocked out.
The difficult stack is around 15-30 bb's. With that stack size I would be less inclined to take the coinflip. The dead money in the middle is usually lower percent wise than if we were shortstack, so the risk to chance ratio is not as good.
There are a lot of things written about these middle stacks, and how to play them. The tournament pro's call it "the re-raise zone".

I once played a tourney where I either called a short stack or called putting my own shortstack all-in seven times in five minutes.
It was kind of a coinflip every time and around 20% dead money in the middle on every hand.

I wouldn't flip for 30bb at this point, maybe up to 15 blinds I think as I always thought this is the best time to get it in, if you're slight favorite with your pair or coin flip at best with the over cards? If it's a difficult time to call then how much longer do you wait for your stack to dwindle to take this flip and the chances of you getting a better shot is limited and ended up busting 30minutes later where I got it in as quite a big underdog.

Many of times I've fold a middle pair with 15 blinds-20blinds
 
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only_bridge

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I wouldn't flip for 30bb at this point, maybe up to 15 blinds I think as I always thought this is the best time to get it in, if you're slight favorite with your pair or coin flip at best with the over cards? If it's a difficult time to call then how much longer do you wait for your stack to dwindle to take this flip and the chances of you getting a better shot is limited and ended up busting 30minutes later where I got it in as quite a big underdog.

Many of times I've fold a middle pair with 15 blinds-20blinds
Yes, this is the pharadox with a middle stack. You dont want to do anything stupid with that many chips, but you cant just sit around and allow yourself to get blinded off.
 
OzExorcist

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Say you are pretty sure to 100% you're up agaisnt a A,K vs your pair or any pocket pair vs two over cards or vica versa when do you decide Ok, now it's time to take this flip and either double up or bust"

What Pascal said - it's a flawed question because you can never be sure that you're up against the opposite to what you're holding (overs vs your pair or vice versa). As a result it's never as simple as a flip either - with some hands you're likely either flipping or dominated and with others you're likely either flipping or dominating. Obviously you'd prefer the latter.
 
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RamdeeBen

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What Pascal said - it's a flawed question because you can never be sure that you're up against the opposite to what you're holding (overs vs your pair or vice versa). As a result it's never as simple as a flip either - with some hands you're likely either flipping or dominated and with others you're likely either flipping or dominating. Obviously you'd prefer the latter.

Yeah I understand what you're saying.

I just mean in general there is a point where you think to yourself deep in a tournament you have to take a flip/gamble regardless I just want to know what point this is for you lot. I mean, surely sometimes when you hold a middle pair and know you have to be getting it in regardless just because you are nearly at a point where you're going to be in the red zone so when someone shoves you have to call knowing you might be coin flip at best but have to do it, will you do this at 10 bb's or less? Or more maybe?
 
ben_rhyno

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I'll take a flip at any stage if I think I am even slighlty ahead, under 15bb's i think it's essential to be looking to take these flips to get a large stack you can use to bully others with
 
Pascal-lf

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If I think I'm 50% against his range then it's always +ev in later stages given dead money in the middle, etc, plus the chance to chip up at a crucial stage in the tournament. The only time I wouldn't is for ICM reasons - e.g. you've got 15bb and two guys have 2bb and 3bb say 4 handed
 
OzExorcist

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There just isn't one all-inclusive answer. So much depends on table dynamics, the stage of the tournament, ICM, reads... if there's a bunch of shorter stacks and we're near the bubble we're less inclined to gamble on a hand that might be flipping. On the other hand maybe we do want to gamble if we've got 25-30BB but we're the short stack by a big margin. So it's not like we can put a BB figure on it or anything. There's no one answer and I think trying to find one is over-simplifying things.

Edit: though I guess we could say something like "when it's pretty obvious that you won't cash if you don't gamble".
 
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RamdeeBen

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I really didn't think ICM played much of a big part in MTT large field tournaments.

I'm still so clueless this succccks lol.
 
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