From 2nd place to out in 2 hands, hand review

T

thefwa

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So I had been playing my absolute A game all tournament, not getting into difficult spots, coolering others and the like. I had also made 3rd in another MTT shortly prior, and at this moment I had been second in chips (down by around 4 BBs from leader), and here are the hands.

<> NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BB): 34.63 BB
UTG: 23.34 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
UTG+1: 23.15 BB (VPIP: 32.08, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 55)
MP: 14.19 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 11.54, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 26)
MP+1: 19.59 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 6.28, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 220)
CO: 19.95 BB (VPIP: 20.51, PFR: 8.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 39)
BTN: 22.59 BB (VPIP: 22.45, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
SB: 38.32 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

8 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has Kd Ac
UTG calls 1 BB, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, fold, MP+1 calls 1 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 0.5 BB, Hero raises to 5.35 BB, fold, UTG+1 calls 4.35 BB, fold, fold

Flop : (14.5 BB, 2 players) Ad 5h 9h
Hero bets 14.5 BB, UTG+1 raises to 17.7 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 3.2 BB

Turn : (49.9 BB, 2 players) 3h

River : (49.9 BB, 2 players) Jc

Hero shows Kd Ac (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 59%, Flop 61%, Turn 0%)

UTG+1 shows Jh Th (Flush, Jack High)
(Pre 41%, Flop 39%, Turn 100%)

UTG+1 wins 49.9 BB

This hand I feel the only thing I could have done better was shove PF and get 4 or 5 BB, and possibly bet less on the flop to have been less pot committed. I knew the villain was aggressive and knew he raised any PP so i figured He had been on a draw or hit 2p at best, personally, I felt he had AT-AJ.

2 hands later... Cooler, nothing could have been done differently, I knew villain wasn't folding PF.


NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BTN): 10.88 BB
SB: 24.44 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 11.54, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 26)
BB: 49.8 BB (VPIP: 32.73, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 57)
UTG: 12.99 BB (VPIP: 32.14, PFR: 10.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
UTG+1: 18.39 BB (VPIP: 28.77, PFR: 6.22, 3Bet Preflop: 3.66, Hands: 222)
MP: 19.75 BB (VPIP: 19.51, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
MP+1: 22.39 BB (VPIP: 21.57, PFR: 6.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 52)
CO: 37.12 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)

8 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has As Ah
fold, fold, MP raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 5.15 BB, fold, fold, MP calls 3.15 BB

Flop : (12.6 BB, 2 players) 5s 8d 4c
MP bets 14.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 5.63 BB and is all-in

Turn : (23.86 BB, 2 players) 4d

River : (23.86 BB, 2 players) Jd

Hero shows As Ah (Two Pair, Aces and Fours)
(Pre 81%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)

MP shows Jc Jh (Full House, Jacks full of Fours)
(Pre 19%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)

MP wins 23.86 BB

Sadly I was one off from the bubble, but had been hoping to FT with around 30 people left and my stack size.

Any notes, or was it mostly variance there?
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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Just variance. Hand 1, villain is not folding after the flop.
 
iiHunt

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Agree ^ Seems like you just hit a string of bad luck my friend! Correct moves with AA just got unlucky. When it comes to AK I would've assumed he was chasing the flush or A lower kicker.Other then that your plays were solid just a matter of bad luck!
 
TeUnit

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variance happens, but something to think about is that 2nd place typically has a very high icm tax
 
L

LChantler

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Same thing just happened to my KK when I shoved into 3 limpers...44 hit 4 on turn and 66 hit 6 on river LOL
 
K

Karametric

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From what i see you played those well. First hand you either have them dominated or they are betting their tournament on a 34% chance..... unless you get really unlucky and they hit a set. Second hand you always got all-in with AA preflop if you can get some callers, which you did. Nothing wrong there.

Hands like this happen, and they suck. my last two big hands were similar, my flush and got called by 2pair on the turn and they both rivered a house.

So you played your A game throughout the tournament, including the end. Well done!!! I know it doesn't feel like a positive thing with not winning any money, but I find I can't often say this about my play.

So take solace in this fact, take some time to cool off if you need (I would and am doing so now for mine) and pat yourself on the back for playing well. :)
 
horizon12

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Hand #1 Fine game, in range villain many Ax , also FD+ second pair..

Hand #2 Shove preflop, on this 3bet villain can fold,, When we shove our range much wider and villain can call easy..
 
T

Tgen

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standar hands , you have to endure the variance of this game.
 
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JamesMoroski

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You should have definitely shoved preflop and just went for the steal worst case is your getting called by a small PP and flipping which at some point to win the mtt your gonna have to win a few flips best case you get called by AQ AJ AT and are dominating and may double up.
 
rytciaq

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That's why BRM is strongly advised if you are serious about poker. Sometimes there are hands that you've done everything correctly but it's just luck
 
W

Waynehead

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I agree with everyone here on the fact that you should of shoved with pocket rockets. Now the first hand I disagree on your raise after the flop. This is just my opinion and I am just sharing it so please understand that.

That based on your placement with chips (second at the time) you could of made him make a hard decision earlier. If you would have shoved after the flop he would of more than likely credited you with 2 pair, 3 of a kind. You said that you had been playing your A game and when someone notices that they tend to back down more. I think your raises implied to him you only had an Ace and not two pair and after the he had already called your big raise after the turn he had no choice but to go all in.

In summary I feel like if you shove after flop you force his hand too soon for him to hope for the flush draw.
 
Marcwantstowin

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Got to say while I was reading your thread and digesting it I was also playing in a freeroll on 888 poker, anyway that lady called variance hit me twice as well. Just shows after you have played your best poker she can just rock up and kick you where it hurts. All your plays were correct to me but, as Waynehead has said perhaps you should have shoved on the flop, but then again that would be like winning the lotto after the numbers have been drawn.

Gl in future and I hope that lady leaves both you and me alone for a while..........................:D:D:D
 
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da_goat

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I agree you played it fine, just some really bad luck.
 
T

thefwa

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Shove Aces Pre

The reason I didnt shove Aces PF was because I had just lost a big hand 2 hands ago and was down to nearly 11 BB, UTG+1 would have thought I was tilting and called anyways.

I notice there is a trend where when a big stack or medium stack loses a big pot and reduced to a 5-15 BB stack they just up and shove PF very shortly after, that is why I didn't think UTG+1 was folding PF. either way UTG+1 had a medium chip stack and I don't think he was folding Jacks in the off chance I had an overpair, with a medium stack I think he would have taken his chances, most players won't fold TT PF to a shove in Mid/late game.

Anyone agree with me on this?
 
horizon12

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Differences in principle not, how you will play shove or 3bet... Because with 10bb you in all boards jam if you 3bet...

Simply, there are players who can fold againt 3bet short stack,,, They may think that you're doing it for value with premium hands... The best solution is of course shove preflop... In order not to give any information about your range...
 
Rattenfaenger

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I noticed this trend as well!

[...]
I notice there is a trend where when a big stack or medium stack loses a big pot and reduced to a 5-15 BB stack they just up and shove PF very shortly after, that is why I didn't think UTG+1 was folding PF. [...]
Anyone agree with me on this?

Yep, I´ve totally seen this myself, too! I just started really "working" in my poker-game a few weeks ago, and I´m mainly playing really low-buy-in-MTT´s (online), it´s sort of a practice for me.

I never thought you could just "read" someone online, but actually with some players, this is very easy. They lose about 80% of their stack, then they wonder how they lost an all-in with KJ, and then just shove it next hand, no matter what hole cards or position they have.

The next part is not important (you might as well skip it and continue reading after the Spoiler), but just a little anectdote, where I tried to exploit this trend, but see what happenend:

I was playing a little SnG fifty-fifty, where I noticed many play very tight, because they just want to make it to the money. I decided to play a little more loose-aggressive too maybe steal some blinds and pots. I thought it was a good idea. Anyhow, the SnG only lasted 4 hands (!!) at least for me:

1. Hand: I´m holding AJs in Late-Pos. Everyone folds to me, I put out a 3bet, everyone behind me folds: nice!

2. Hand: AJ. one 3bet before me, I reraise, everyone folds, Villain calls. Flop shows A-3-7 rainbow, he bets, I reraise (as I said, I wanted to play aggressive to exploit the tightness), he calls. Of course there I realised I might very well be behind with AJ, I was ready to fold now. Turn comes J.
Villain checks, I bet, he folds. I´m thinking: this is actually working!

3. Hand: QQ. I realisied I´m might very well have the image of a LAG now. So I raise from early pos. There´s one reraise from SB. I´m wondering if he just wants to put some pressure on me, or if he really has something going. I reraise to All-in (I guess this was my only mistake in this SnG, but I dont know for sure), he calls...he shows AA!
So everything goes as expected: I lose the pot, but still have about 50% of the beginning stack left to work with...

4.Hand: KK. I´m thinking that this is the best thing that could happen now. If just shove it All-in from early position now, everyone will think I´m just on tilt (and this is why I´m telling this story in this thread :) ), and maybe call me with anything from bottom pocketpairs up to QJ, AK or whatever. Everyone folds, except for one villain....guess what he had?!

AA :goodnight
Of course I lost the hand, and so I got kicked out, with the best 4 starting hands in a SnG or Tourney in all of my life... :rofl:


...so back to topic:

I think this trend is very strong, I´ve seen it many times, people just lose their patience after a loss and just shove literally EVERYTHING. There must be a way to profit from this. But then again I´m having something like a paranoia from putting people on a range, raising them to all in or calling theirs and then getting kicked out close to the bubble with QQ vs 85s or KK vs 7J and the likes...:)

And for your first post:

I think you did well, as everyone else already said. thats just bad luck!
 
C

Caissa

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Hand #1: I think your raise is too small. You are giving him better than 2:1 pot odds. He knows that if he doesn't hit the flop he can get out with minimal damage to his stack and if he hits he's got enough behind to justify putting in less than 20% of his stack. AK is a much better hand preflop than post flop. I don't think I would shove, but I would really want to make him pay to see the flop, between 8-11 BB. If he calls you're kinda in the same boat but you can put him on a much better hand and maybe get away from yours. Probably not. I don't think he's calling that size of a bet though with JTs. I wouldn't.

Hand#2: I like shoving AA on priciple but I don't think it really makes a difference. He's not folding those Js
 
tARsh

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I think you play on both of these is solid.
over 5bb raise with AK is appropriate you hit one of the hands you want with it good job. Anymore preflop and you are over committing on a big drawing hand.

I agree with your not open push on AA in those circumstances you still ample FE (fold equity) and no need to push out a lot of hands that pay you more post; if they setmine and hit it's oh well.

UL better luck next time man.
 
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nygmen2007

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There is no reason why stuff happens in poker.. I have gone from first to out in an orbit... I had been playing well.. I find that the reason this happens is for no other reason than the cards didnt fall for me.. It amazes me none the less.... Just have to pick urself up and go onto the next one..
 
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Bayern2015

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Yes ! I have that problem too... I am leader or 2nd player and i lost turnament in 2 hands but very ugly... And when i lost i think this game is really bingopoker jokerstars... ;)
 
ghOst

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So I had been playing my absolute A game all tournament, not getting into difficult spots, coolering others and the like. I had also made 3rd in another MTT shortly prior, and at this moment I had been second in chips (down by around 4 BBs from leader), and here are the hands.

<> NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BB): 34.63 BB
UTG: 23.34 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
UTG+1: 23.15 BB (VPIP: 32.08, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 55)
MP: 14.19 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 11.54, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 26)
MP+1: 19.59 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 6.28, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 220)
CO: 19.95 BB (VPIP: 20.51, PFR: 8.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 39)
BTN: 22.59 BB (VPIP: 22.45, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
SB: 38.32 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

8 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has Kd Ac
UTG calls 1 BB, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, fold, MP+1 calls 1 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 0.5 BB, Hero raises to 5.35 BB, fold, UTG+1 calls 4.35 BB, fold, fold

Flop : (14.5 BB, 2 players) Ad 5h 9h
Hero bets 14.5 BB, UTG+1 raises to 17.7 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 3.2 BB

Turn : (49.9 BB, 2 players) 3h

River : (49.9 BB, 2 players) Jc

Hero shows Kd Ac (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 59%, Flop 61%, Turn 0%)

UTG+1 shows Jh Th (Flush, Jack High)
(Pre 41%, Flop 39%, Turn 100%)

UTG+1 wins 49.9 BB

This hand I feel the only thing I could have done better was shove PF and get 4 or 5 BB, and possibly bet less on the flop to have been less pot committed. I knew the villain was aggressive and knew he raised any PP so i figured He had been on a draw or hit 2p at best, personally, I felt he had AT-AJ.

2 hands later... Cooler, nothing could have been done differently, I knew villain wasn't folding PF.


NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BTN): 10.88 BB
SB: 24.44 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 11.54, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 26)
BB: 49.8 BB (VPIP: 32.73, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 57)
UTG: 12.99 BB (VPIP: 32.14, PFR: 10.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
UTG+1: 18.39 BB (VPIP: 28.77, PFR: 6.22, 3Bet Preflop: 3.66, Hands: 222)
MP: 19.75 BB (VPIP: 19.51, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
MP+1: 22.39 BB (VPIP: 21.57, PFR: 6.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 52)
CO: 37.12 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)

8 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has As Ah
fold, fold, MP raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 5.15 BB, fold, fold, MP calls 3.15 BB

Flop : (12.6 BB, 2 players) 5s 8d 4c
MP bets 14.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 5.63 BB and is all-in

Turn : (23.86 BB, 2 players) 4d

River : (23.86 BB, 2 players) Jd

Hero shows As Ah (Two Pair, Aces and Fours)
(Pre 81%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)

MP shows Jc Jh (Full House, Jacks full of Fours)
(Pre 19%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)

MP wins 23.86 BB

Sadly I was one off from the bubble, but had been hoping to FT with around 30 people left and my stack size.

Any notes, or was it mostly variance there?

Tough day, that is all. Happens to the best of hands till the river. To win a tournament takes a lot of things to go right. You played well and don't change your game. Keep grinding young grasshopper
 
solargarlic

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That is nothing

Sadly I have worse beat than that on regular basis. When I run well I run real well but when I lose it is unreal. I will lose hands where I am bounds ahead preflop and by the river my hand gets dismantled. If it is race god forbid I lose 80%. Sometimes poker is a fickle bitch! Good Luck it will come around again.
 
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