2 Pair vs ?? Can you ever fold?

We are in a stupid benefit tourney with mostly bad players. My table ends up with 3 of us who play together a couple of times a month and we are busting peeps left and right. In this hand UTG is one who plays all the time and button, his brother, doesn't play with us much but is decent, just not experienced.

Blinds: 500/1000

SB 10000
BB 15000
UTG 30000
+1 20000
Me 40000
Button 15000 Kh Qs

UTG Raise to 2500
fold, fold
Button Calls to 2500
fold, fold

Flop: Qh Ks 10d

UTG bet 4000
Button: All in for 12500
UTG instacall

The question I have concerns stack sizes. I think the shove is the only thing the button can do here, but what if his stack is 15 to 20 bigs on the flop? Is there ever a time where you can let 2 pair go for a better spot? I knew what UTG had as soon as he bet on the flop and, right or wrong, I would have let it go if I had more than 16 bigs left. In this exact situation I would have shoved just in case I was wrong about his holdings. UTG and I were talking about the hand later and he says button can never fold there. I think there is a stack size that could make it the best play to fold if you are sure you are beat.

I'd look at it this way: I don't see any way you can fold, whether you've got 12, 15, 20, maybe even more big blinds behind, once you've called the preflop raise and seen that flop.

We're scared of exactly two hands, AJ and TT (figuring KK and QQ are much less likely given our holding). Villain must have a bunch of other stuff in his range here that we beat including AA, AK, JJ, AQ, whiffs, maybe even stuff like KJ or QJ depending on exactly what kind of player they are.

Only way I could see myself folding is if we were much, much deeper, villain is a nit and the action goes bet-raise-raise or something. Then I might start to wonder.

IMO the real question is why we just flat called preflop with a stack that short...

OzExorcist said:

I'd look at it this way: I don't see any way you can fold, whether you've got 12, 15, 20, maybe even more big blinds behind, once you've called the preflop raise and seen that flop.

We're scared of exactly two hands, AJ and TT (figuring KK and QQ are much less likely given our holding). Villain must have a bunch of other stuff in his range here that we beat including AA, AK, JJ, AQ, whiffs, maybe even stuff like KJ or QJ depending on exactly what kind of player they are.

Only way I could see myself folding is if we were much, much deeper, villain is a nit and the action goes bet-raise-raise or something. Then I might start to wonder.

IMO the real question is why we just flat called preflop with a stack that short...

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very true. I dont think I personally can fold in that spot.

Yeah, I would have either shoved or folded pre. In this case, with UTG being a very skilled player, and having played with him a ton, I would have folded. Against most others I would have shoved. That is where the inexperience of the button hurt him the most I think. I could see UTG folding to a shove from his inexperienced brother with his holdings.

As far as folding in the current situation, I was watching UTG's face when it flopped and I knew that the button was in trouble if he hit, but he didn't really have a choice as he would be just as crippled folding as losing.

No folding this hand ever? Hmmm. I just don't know. If you fold here you are screwed as you barely have any chips to do anything with. However, with let's say 25 bb, you can put enough pressure on most stacks to generate fold equity later if you fold because you are sure you are beat. I would say that 15 is the bare minimum that can start to cause consternation in the bigger stacks. I personally think that 2 pair is the most overvalued hand in holdem and don't want to go out overvaluing this hand.

I think you are probably right, but I am just trying to think it through and explain my thought process.

Disclaimer: I am mostly a cash game player at the casino and not a tournament player at bars, so I admittedly do not have a ton of tournament experience.

Not ever folding with stack sizes unless you got a soul read on the dude but yeah he could do this with a kj easy to even a q10 or a10

id be jamming tbh, you have fold equity live with these chip stacks. as played never ever folding

wait im confused, are we 'me' or the button

eh i prob fold pre you prob arent ahead of UTG who is only really folding the lowest of his range vs you

duggs said:

wait im confused, are we 'me' or the button

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I was "me." UTG and button were brothers, who also are my cousins.

Six Hurdles said:

As far as folding in the current situation, I was watching UTG's face when it flopped and I knew that the button was in trouble if he hit, but he didn't really have a choice as he would be just as crippled folding as losing.

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OK - so you were able to tell by watching his face that he had exactly... what, AJ? TT? There's no chance he'd be wearing exactly the same expression with AK or AA, which we beat? Unless villain has physically shown his cards to us, I don't see how we can think anything other than we're ahead of a good chunk of his range (and that we have at least four outs against pretty much all of the hands that are ahead).

And once again, I think this decision was all made preflop because if your plan was to call in position, flop top two pair and then find a reason to fold then you need a new plan. Even with 25BB left behind. If that's your plan then you should have folded preflop.

OzExorcist said:

OK - so you were able to tell by watching his face that he had exactly... what, AJ? TT? There's no chance he'd be wearing exactly the same expression with AK or AA, which we beat? Unless villain has physically shown his cards to us, I don't see how we can think anything other than we're ahead of a good chunk of his range (and that we have at least four outs against pretty much all of the hands that are ahead).

And once again, I think this decision was all made preflop because if your plan was to call in position, flop top two pair and then find a reason to fold then you need a new plan. Even with 25BB left behind. If that's your plan then you should have folded preflop.

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Wow, total ADD moment there. I never got around to the bulk of my thought process. Sorry. Because UTG is a very good player and knows that button is calling with way too narrow a range he is probably not c betting on this flop because button almost certainly hit, and probably semi hard. The only way he is betting into him, I think, is if he has him beat, or is open ended. I am probably like 35/25 so UTG would bet into me every time and I would shove with stacks as is, but if I had played a 17/10 game and UTG knew that and bet into me, I would seriously consider folding. Especially if I had 20 to 25 bb.