$11 buy-in $15k GTD Online. (Final table ICM mistake?)

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DonbeNoobz

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Hello! First post. I tried posting under tournament hand analysis but it wouldn't let me.

So, we're at the final table sitting 2/8 @1.6 million and blinds at 30k/60k. Everyone is short as well with 1 person being super short and sitting out. The big stack (villain) is to my direct right and sitting at around 4.4 million. Villain is LAG and opens to 3.8x. I look down at KK and I decide to put in a 3bet leaving me around 1 million behind. He just calls and the flop comes J72 rainbow. He checks, and I decide to shove because I feel like AA-99 would probably have gone all in pre flop and I wanted a call from all of his Jx combos. He snap calls with 87o and turns two pairs.

What should I have done differently. Shove pre? Fold pre? Just call?

Thanks
 
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celoshida

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Were you trying to induce him to go all in with that sizing?

I don't know. in my opinion, with your stack, the only option is going all in and hope that he has a medium pair.

you're giving him odds to call pre flop.
 
This Fish Chums

This Fish Chums

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Not going all-in at a final table.

First of all, if someone has a much weaker holding than you, you want him to call because over time you are going to win making that shove with a hand as good as KK on a J-high flop. However, if you were intentionally trying to push them out of the hand then you should have bet maybe 300K-500K. When you're at the final table, especially if someone is a LAG with a larger stack size, they will be willing to call simply because you did go all-in. All they see is an opportunity to take you out of the tournament. Plus, with 2-3 million left in chips it probably made it seem to them like it was worth the risk. Next time I'd recommend betting less if you're wanting to push them out, or at least not going all-in.
 
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Sprockett

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I think you played it fine. I Would play it in a simular way (maybe raise a litle more pre). With his huge open, any reraise would set up for a shove on the flop, imo.

My 2 cents
 
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kozong

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its a good play for me, just unlucky
even w/ a preflop shove, he might still call (hes calling flop w/ 2nd pair bad kicker on a 3bet pot)
 
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DonbeNoobz

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Thanks for the advice. Yea, I was willing to go all in pre had he 4bet jammed, but it's sooo gross because of ICM. I kinda wanted to push him out of the pot on the flop only because he's a maniac and the chip leader.
 
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DonbeNoobz

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Were you trying to induce him to go all in with that sizing?

I don't know. in my opinion, with your stack, the only option is going all in and hope that he has a medium pair.

you're giving him odds to call pre flop.
I honestly wanted him to fold pre tbh. Only beacuse of the money ladder and i was 2nd in chips. There was someone sitting out so it puts me in awkward position. I guess i should have shoved pre.
 
MrGrace

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He bet enough were he might not of folded no matter what you did, you had the better hand and you cant predict a 7 8 two pair with someone pushing before you in my opinion. I would of went all in he may have thought you were bluffing leaving 1 million in chips to make it tell the low stack lost. You had the better hand and dont think over it too much. I may have just called to see the flop but its tuff to say.
 
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DonbeNoobz

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He bet enough were he might not of folded no matter what you did, you had the better hand and you cant predict a 7 8 two pair with someone pushing before you in my opinion. I would of went all in he may have thought you were bluffing leaving 1 million in chips to make it tell the low stack lost. You had the better hand and dont think over it too much. I may have just called to see the flop but its tuff to say.
Yeaaaa it's all in the past now. Just wanted some feedback. Thanks.
 
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quant1986

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Unless all other opponents are super short literally like <2BB except you and chipleader, your action should still be +ICM EV for a normal payout structure. Your villain may put you on AQs/AK and call your shove.
 
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celoshida

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I honestly wanted him to fold pre tbh. Only beacuse of the money ladder and i was 2nd in chips. There was someone sitting out so it puts me in awkward position. I guess i should have shoved pre.


with your sizing he's never folding pre flop. he was playing big stack bully against you and the whole table.

your stop and go is a good play in general but against maniacs with a big stack I like making them pay with no equity.

at the end of the day, KK is a monster, but only pre flop.

but nice result, you could've won the whole thing, had you won that pot.
 
hugh blair

hugh blair

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Just terrible luck would have been tempted to go all in preflop get him to muck good luck in future.
 
BnaD

BnaD

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Just unlucky. You got max value from a weaker hand just like you wanted.
 
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maximmaxim

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I am not the one who wants to go .... . make sure that ... if you defeat him, you will have 3,000,000, and he will have 3,000,000 ... in short, even if you have 3,000,000, you are all exactly waiting for the participants to decrease, and if you lose to him .. then the end of everything ... you have to wait for the departure of the short ones ... and even throw out the kings. . the benefit of those who wait more, even if you win. you risk everything for the moment, and the short ones have nothing to risk.

you need to force the last ones to put everything ... when their stack starts running out
 
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